New documentary on the GN

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
Nothing says it better Jay! :D

This car is ALL about performance, street and strip, and the people that pushed the envelope in developing and building parts specifically for our car put them in the forefront, and some are still doing it to keep them there!

Many current production cars easily exceed the performance of a stock GN, but the "mystic" still belongs to the GN!

Many good people and companies not mentioned have contributed to the stature of the GN in the automotive performance arena, and we are all greatful for what they have done, and continue to do for us. :)

Couldnt have said it better myself, Nick. Its nice that there are a few old timers still around like you, Chuck, TurboKid, Grumpy, etc but the guys at the forefront these days either werent around in the hey day or they were just getting started. Now I have to start all my stories with "Back in my day......"
 

DJ Red Barron

Door-To-Door Pipelayer
You kind of made my point. No one thats involved with these cars still was around when it all started, at least not from an aspect that contributed to the popularity of the cars. There are a few of us but I suspect by seeing the trailer who they used for their sources and thats going to paint a very skewed picture of how things really were and a lot of people who were incredibly important in the early days of these cars Im sure were left out simply because most people dont know the history or for other reasons which Im just going to leave alone.

Props to them for making it I guess but I feel pretty confident that a lot of important stuff in the history of these cars were omitted.

I doubt I would have participated even if I was asked so thanks for the backhanded slap. Ive been jaded for quite a while and if you had walked a mile in my shoes, you'd probably know why.

Hopefully they did it right and interviewed the people that deserved to be on it but Im 99% sure that didnt happen. The subculture is what made this car what it was.
Well it would be hard to interview people who aren't physically here anymore. As far as the history "most people don't know"... You indicate that you know it. So rather than have a bad attitude, why didn't you maybe get in touch with the guy who made the film and get your information to him? He isn't hard to reach. I actually found his contact information right here on this board and did something to help with the documentary. And I am a new pup in the eyes of the old dogs around here.

Yes, you are jaded. That's very apparent. Your attitude comes across as piss poor a lot IMO. As for the backhanded slap, it wasn't mean to be covert in the slightest. You say things like "Ive been jaded for quite a while and if you had walked a mile in my shoes, you'd probably know why" all while backing that statement up with a negativity rivaled by few. You aren't the only one who has had to walk whatever path that took you to the jaded place you are. But something to consider is this. You carry the title of Administrator on one of the biggest GN related forums out there. I think it's somewhat in bad taste to trash talk a product you have no first hand knowledge of other than the trailer you have seen for it. It's even worse when you say things indicating you know so much history on the subject, yet did nothing to make sure said history was included in the film. But you will take time out of your day to bitch when you're under the impression that very important things relating to the car were left out. The movie was in production for 3 years. People on this board have known about it for a very long time. If something THAT important needed to be included and you knew about it, I guess it's on you if the movie is lacking it.
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
Well it would be hard to interview people who aren't physically here anymore. As far as the history "most people don't know"... You indicate that you know it. So rather than have a bad attitude, why didn't you maybe get in touch with the guy who made the film and get your information to him? He isn't hard to reach. I actually found his contact information right here on this board and did something to help with the documentary. And I am a new pup in the eyes of the old dogs around here.

Yes, you are jaded. That's very apparent. Your attitude comes across as piss poor a lot IMO. As for the backhanded slap, it wasn't mean to be covert in the slightest. You say things like "Ive been jaded for quite a while and if you had walked a mile in my shoes, you'd probably know why" all while backing that statement up with a negativity rivaled by few. You aren't the only one who has had to walk whatever path that took you to the jaded place you are. But something to consider is this. You carry the title of Administrator on one of the biggest GN related forums out there. I think it's somewhat in bad taste to trash talk a product you have no first hand knowledge of other than the trailer you have seen for it. It's even worse when you say things indicating you know so much history on the subject, yet did nothing to make sure said history was included in the film. But you will take time out of your day to bitch when you're under the impression that very important things relating to the car were left out. The movie was in production for 3 years. People on this board have known about it for a very long time. If something THAT important needed to be included and you knew about it, I guess it's on you if the movie is lacking it.

I think youre misunderstanding what Im trying to say. Im sure that this will be a great documentary but again, its only half the story. As far as people "not being here", as far as I know, most of them are still alive, they've just either A) moved on or B) gotten too old to be involved in this stuff anymore. You have to remember that most people that blazed the trail back in the beginning were in their 40s and 50s then. That was 25 years ago. I was just fortunate enough to be able to own one of these cars when I was young and have a desire to tinker. As far as what I know.. no one asked. If they had of, I would have come forward. I believe people like Scott Keller, Ken Mosher, Conrad Jones, Jim Haas, Jim D'Allesandro, Fred Vetter, Vic Guilmino, Pete Barton, Lawrence Conley and everyone else from that era (and I only named a very few) deserves some accolades and should have been mentioned in this thing. Ken is still around.. Scott is too I believe but I havent spoken to any of the others in years. But they were the guys on the forefront of this stuff and the reason you have a lot of the cool technology you have now. Theyre the ones this documentary should be worried about, not Car and Driver. What the hell did C&D ever do for Buicks? Run a couple of stories? How is that any different than anything else they do. C&D is the very last person I would want talking about the Grand National.. well, maybe Hot Rod or Car Craft would be worse.

Also, in case you havent noticed, Im trying really hard here not to name names and turn this into a mudslinging event but depending on who you ask about this stuff, you're going to get a completely different answer as far as who did what and most of it for self serving reasons.

Finally, as far as being jaded, invest your time in stuff and have people steal it right out from under you or do everything they can to undermine you and see how great you think this community is. Try to help someone else out and get thrown in the middle of a felony theft investigation someone created over a personal vendetta and see how you like it. I cant make you understand how things are in the underbelly of the Buick world because if you havent experienced it, you just cant know. The farther in you get, the worse it is and truthfully, these days its like Romper Room compared to what it used to be. When one person is trying to rule the Buick world by any means necessary, things can get.... interesting. The Internet changed all that to a certain extent. But yea, Im very much "what you see is what you get" but as Shane will attest, Ill give anyone the shirt off my back but I have a low tolerance for BS and Ive put up with a lot of it.

How many stupid postcards have you gotten?
 

DavzGN

Well-Known Member
I think youre misunderstanding what Im trying to say. Im sure that this will be a great documentary but again, its only half the story. As far as people "not being here", as far as I know, most of them are still alive, they've just either A) moved on or B) gotten too old to be involved in this stuff anymore. You have to remember that most people that blazed the trail back in the beginning were in their 40s and 50s then. That was 25 years ago. I was just fortunate enough to be able to own one of these cars when I was young and have a desire to tinker. As far as what I know.. no one asked. If they had of, I would have come forward. I believe people like Scott Keller, Ken Mosher, Conrad Jones, Jim Haas, Jim D'Allesandro, Fred Vetter, Vic Guilmino, Pete Barton, Lawrence Conley and everyone else from that era (and I only named a very few) deserves some accolades and should have been mentioned in this thing. Ken is still around.. Scott is too I believe but I havent spoken to any of the others in years. But they were the guys on the forefront of this stuff and the reason you have a lot of the cool technology you have now. Theyre the ones this documentary should be worried about, not Car and Driver. What the hell did C&D ever do for Buicks? Run a couple of stories? How is that any different than anything else they do. C&D is the very last person I would want talking about the Grand National.. well, maybe Hot Rod or Car Craft would be worse.

Also, in case you havent noticed, Im trying really hard here not to name names and turn this into a mudslinging event but depending on who you ask about this stuff, you're going to get a completely different answer as far as who did what and most of it for self serving reasons.

Finally, as far as being jaded, invest your time in stuff and have people steal it right out from under you or do everything they can to undermine you and see how great you think this community is. Try to help someone else out and get thrown in the middle of a felony theft investigation someone created over a personal vendetta and see how you like it. I cant make you understand how things are in the underbelly of the Buick world because if you havent experienced it, you just cant know. The farther in you get, the worse it is and truthfully, these days its like Romper Room compared to what it used to be. When one person is trying to rule the Buick world by any means necessary, things can get.... interesting. The Internet changed all that to a certain extent. But yea, Im very much "what you see is what you get" but as Shane will attest, Ill give anyone the shirt off my back but I have a low tolerance for BS and Ive put up with a lot of it.

How many stupid postcards have you gotten?


Sounds like the info that is needed for "Black Air 2"

David
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
Sounds like the info that is needed for "Black Air 2"

David

Its crazy. I mean, it really is stuff they make movies out of. So much history that isnt documented anywhere. BTRCA, Buicks at Bristol, etc. Politicing.. like I said, if I sat down with any of you guys for an hour and told you about some of the stuff Ive seen or been a part of because of these cars, you would think I was making it up. It aint like it used to be and the Internet is the main reason why.
 

Phoff

Active Member
Nothing says it better Jay! :D

This car is ALL about performance, street and strip, and the people that pushed the envelope in developing and building parts specifically for our car put them in the forefront, and some are still doing it to keep them there!

Many current production cars easily exceed the performance of a stock GN, but the "mystic" still belongs to the GN!

Many good people and companies not mentioned have contributed to the stature of the GN in the automotive performance arena, and we are all greatful for what they have done, and continue to do for us. :)


"mystic" is the right Nick! I guess today you would need a Ford Taurus to run low 11's with a 4 cylindar to compare with what the GN did back in the 1980's.
 

bison

Moderator
Staff member
Nick Micale said:
Nothing says it better Jay! :D

This car is ALL about performance, street and strip, and the people that pushed the envelope in developing and building parts specifically for our car put them in the forefront, and some are still doing it to keep them there!

Many current production cars easily exceed the performance of a stock GN, but the "mystic" still belongs to the GN!

Many good people and companies not mentioned have contributed to the stature of the GN in the automotive performance arena, and we are all greatful for what they have done, and continue to do for us. :)

^^^this. What happened with these cars after they were out of production played a bigger role in their popularity. At least 10 people went out and bought one of these directly after I took them for a blast. Some as late as the early 2000's didnt realize the potential till they experienced it. Some will never know. This board is these cars last breath.
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
^^^this. What happened with these cars after they were out of production played a bigger role in their popularity. At least 10 people went out and bought one of these directly after I took them for a blast. Some as late as the early 2000's didnt realize the potential till they experienced it. Some will never know. This board is these cars last breath.

QFT... QFT

Thats one of the reasons this board will never change owners again. Shane loves Buicks too much to let this board be ruined by someone just in it for the money.
 

87chrisss

BLUBYU
Jay i think it would be pretty cool to share some of the 'REAL' Buick story's just as clarification for the younger crowd's. There are some guys who love these Buick's @ heart and there are some that don't and just go thru a phase, but honestly time will tell. I would love to see a turbo Lounge heading with Well Back in my day (from a true TB guy) with pics and real information but seems no one ever does?
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
Jay i think it would be pretty cool to share some of the 'REAL' Buick story's just as clarification for the younger crowd's. There are some guys who love these Buick's @ heart and there are some that don't and just go thru a phase, but honestly time will tell. I would love to see a turbo Lounge heading with Well Back in my day (from a true TB guy) with pics and real information but seems no one ever does?

This one time, at band camp.......

There was so much drama its not even funny... the whole Torque Tech Vs GSCA thing, the Reclino-dyno.. the Bowling Green theft which most people think now ever happened... An ever changing cast of characters... I remember going to Bowling Green I think in 88 and walking around the pits in awe. I walked up to an older guy and a skinny kid beside a couple of Buicks and was just sort of looking and the skinny kid shut his hood when I walked up. I said something along the lines of "What have you got in there?" and he looked at me dead serious and said "Frankenstein." Some of you may know that skinny kid.. it was Pete Barton and his dad.
 

turbo39151

anycoloraslongasitsblack
I agree with 87chrisss- name some names and put it out there...Inquiring minds want to know.
If people don't like it, too bad. I've heard a few things here and there and it really changes your perspective when you have both sides of the story.
Additionally, I agree C&D din't do squat but write some articles... But, at least now there's something being produced that lets us Buick junkies get our winter fix and who knows, it may help to convert a few more to our ranks...

Black Air II might not be a bad idea. At least then we'd have "the rest of the story" - (thanks Paul Harvey...)
 

DJ Red Barron

Door-To-Door Pipelayer
I think youre misunderstanding what Im trying to say. Im sure that this will be a great documentary but again, its only half the story. As far as people "not being here", as far as I know, most of them are still alive, they've just either A) moved on or B) gotten too old to be involved in this stuff anymore. You have to remember that most people that blazed the trail back in the beginning were in their 40s and 50s then. That was 25 years ago. I was just fortunate enough to be able to own one of these cars when I was young and have a desire to tinker. As far as what I know.. no one asked. If they had of, I would have come forward. I believe people like Scott Keller, Ken Mosher, Conrad Jones, Jim Haas, Jim D'Allesandro, Fred Vetter, Vic Guilmino, Pete Barton, Lawrence Conley and everyone else from that era (and I only named a very few) deserves some accolades and should have been mentioned in this thing. Ken is still around.. Scott is too I believe but I havent spoken to any of the others in years. But they were the guys on the forefront of this stuff and the reason you have a lot of the cool technology you have now. Theyre the ones this documentary should be worried about, not Car and Driver. What the hell did C&D ever do for Buicks? Run a couple of stories? How is that any different than anything else they do. C&D is the very last person I would want talking about the Grand National.. well, maybe Hot Rod or Car Craft would be worse.

Also, in case you havent noticed, Im trying really hard here not to name names and turn this into a mudslinging event but depending on who you ask about this stuff, you're going to get a completely different answer as far as who did what and most of it for self serving reasons.

Finally, as far as being jaded, invest your time in stuff and have people steal it right out from under you or do everything they can to undermine you and see how great you think this community is. Try to help someone else out and get thrown in the middle of a felony theft investigation someone created over a personal vendetta and see how you like it. I cant make you understand how things are in the underbelly of the Buick world because if you havent experienced it, you just cant know. The farther in you get, the worse it is and truthfully, these days its like Romper Room compared to what it used to be. When one person is trying to rule the Buick world by any means necessary, things can get.... interesting. The Internet changed all that to a certain extent. But yea, Im very much "what you see is what you get" but as Shane will attest, Ill give anyone the shirt off my back but I have a low tolerance for BS and Ive put up with a lot of it.

How many stupid postcards have you gotten?
Honestly, I KNOW I am not alone in wanting to know the rest of the story. I'd absolutely love to sit down with you and hear every detail of what you know. I am sure it wouldn't take a lot to get Andrew interested in a sequel to Black Air. It could be titled "Black Air II - The Dark Side Of The Dark Side". If you are interested in providing some stories and insight, PM me. I will get you in direct contact with him. Who knows... This could turn into something very cool for the community.
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
JayC said:
This one time, at band camp.......

There was so much drama its not even funny... the whole Torque Tech Vs GSCA thing, the Reclino-dyno.. the Bowling Green theft which most people think now ever happened... An ever changing cast of characters... I remember going to Bowling Green I think in 88 and walking around the pits in awe. I walked up to an older guy and a skinny kid beside a couple of Buicks and was just sort of looking and the skinny kid shut his hood when I walked up. I said something along the lines of "What have you got in there?" and he looked at me dead serious and said "Frankenstein." Some of you may know that skinny kid.. it was Pete Barton and his dad.

I was there at the GS nationals in 88-91 , and I'd love to hear your views. I was a very young impressionable guy back then. I do remember the stories as I heard them but it sounds like you have first hand experience with the post cards and all. I know it would stir up controversy and might be better left unearthed. Your call.

Oh and I agree this site is THE turbo regal mecca. Nothing else like it. I want to thank both Shane and yourself for providing it. I know it is thankless so here is some thanks.

And to stay on topic, sounds like a cool vid. Doubt ill partake. Maybe someone in our local chapter will show it at a gathering.
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
I was there at the GS nationals in 88-91 , and I'd love to hear your views. I was a very young impressionable guy back then. I do remember the stories as I heard them but it sounds like you have first hand experience with the post cards and all. I know it would stir up controversy and might be better left unearthed. Your call.

Oh and I agree this site is THE turbo regal mecca. Nothing else like it. I want to thank both Shane and yourself for providing it. I know it is thankless so here is some thanks.

And to stay on topic, sounds like a cool vid. Doubt ill partake. Maybe someone in our local chapter will show it at a gathering.

LOL.. I was wondering if anyone else was going to know about the post cards. Ive gotten quite a few of those.

Here's a good one for you if you werent there and man, I wish I knew who was behind this and I wish I had a copy of one to show off. I HAD one I saved but it was many years ago.

Im thinking it was the 97 Nats.. the event had been going on for a few days and for a long time, the prices just kept going up and up and up to the point it was ridiculous. The 90s were the heyday at the Nats. People were hiding in trailers to avoid the huge spectator fees. So Richard Lassiter is there with his new wife (And Id like to say for the record, she seemed like a nice woman from when I spoke with her and this story isnt a dig at her at all) and lets say his new wife had had some work done up top. Im only including this because you need to know in the payoff.

So we drive into the track either Friday or Saturday morning and you know how that drive into Beech Bend is.. trees, light poles every 10 feet, etc. Well, someone had drawn a characterture of Richard and his wife with just beyond ridiculous boobs. There was a talk bubble coming out of his mouth saying something like "Dont worry honey. After the Nationals we can get you new implants and fix up Old Blue" which was what he called his GS and at the bottom of the page with musical notes adorning it, it said "Its all about the money at the GS Nationals". These were posted on every light pole and tree for about a mile when you were driving into the track. I stopped and grabbed one and held on to it. I wish I could find it because it was classic.

To whoever pulled this off, if youre reading this, I tip my hat to you. Please email me a copy :)

IMO when the Nats started the downslide is when The Park Inn burned down. It was the host hotel and man, back in those days, it was nuts. The first year I went I didnt stay there, I stayed at the Holiday Inn by the interstate but you spent all your time at the Park Inn. The vendors were set up there in a banquet room.. Don Kizer (Anyone remember him?) was selling chips there and had all these lame books like "Understanding binary code", etc to try to make people think he knew what he was talking about. Years later it came out Don was a front for some guy that worked at GM that was doing his chips.. I have no idea who. But yea, you'd hang out at the Park Inn, people would walk around with pitchers on Long Island Ice Teas and it was a great time. I stayed there every year afterwards until it burned down and they never could capture the magic of that place anywhere else. Probably because it was laid out weird with a huge inside area you could congregate in and the rooms kind of surrounded it. If you ever saw the place, you'd understand what Im talking about.

I got a million of them.... like I said, the car is only half the story :)
 

WH1

5150
Good story. I'd like to hear the missing vehicle story, too. But I'm glad someone took the time and money for our cars.
 

JayC

T6P.Com/TB.com Administrator/Webmaster
Staff member
Good story. I'd like to hear the missing vehicle story, too. But I'm glad someone took the time and money for our cars.

Not a missing car.... Supposedly Bowling Green Customs got a bunch of stuff stolen from them one night at I think the 97 Nats. A prototype set of headers, a carbon fiber hood, some turbos, I think some injectors.. Im not really sure. Modern Muscle (Mike Licht) and Conley had a few things stolen too but BGC took the brunt of it. Anyways, we were there with Nelson's twin turbo car when it still had stock suspension. We made a pass, like a 9.0 or something and when he brought the car back to the pits, the next time he went to start it, the gear drive broke off the front of the engine.

There used to be this guy sold a lot of Stage 2 stuff from a place called (I think) Litchfield, Kentucky. Nelson's parents live in KY or did at the time and we were staying at their house since it was close to the track (and free). Nelson and Jeff were sort of friends so he offered to let us come to his shop and fix the car. We towed up there, tore the car down, fixed it and put it back together and then realized after all that that we bent some valves. We considered swapping heads but it was already like 4AM so we drove back to BG and didnt get back until like 7 AM.

So anyways, after the Nats, BGC , Conley and Modern Muscle all got anonymous letters in the mail on various companies stationary implicating Torque Tech (who didnt even ATTEND THE NATS THAT YEAR) and me. Well, Keith was home in Ga and I was in Litchfield so it was obviously someone trying to take advantage of the situation and throw the blame on us. All of the letters were postmarked in the state of Ga.. you can draw your own conclusion where it came from. I KNOW where they came from and theres more to the story Im not going to divulge without permission from the other people involved but yea.. thats the theft story. If you use your head, its not hard to figure out who had a grudge with Torque Tech and me and lives in Ga.

None of the stuff ever surfaced.. like NONE of it. Years later, I think most people kind of figured out it was all staged, probably for insurance money. Who would steal all that crap and then just sit on it, never to be seen again?
 

we4Mateo

Double you eee what?
Wow, great stuff. I rode in my car when I was 10 years old in 1990. I bought a GTP Grand Prix after college b/c of my 3800 love from the TR ride of my youth. I then bought my current car that I rode in back in the day quite a few years back. My buddy I've been racing with for 10 years has had one or more of these cars since 1990; same year I had my first ride, but not with him. He has told me soooo many stories similar to what has been discussed in this thread as he's been a Nats racer for quite some time. It is this though that drives the popularity and the legend of these cars. It's the reason I want to push mine harder. Every time I give a person a ride, it's the same thing, "I've never been in a car like that before!" I can imagine what it sounds like when they tell others and that's the legend builder. I've ridden in some pretty amazing cars in my years, and nothing compares to a TR, even just sitting there. But I have to agree with JayC and Nick, the legend was built at the track and at abandoned roads by those that had no problem changing headgaskets in a parking lot and running 30lbs of boost to win a race. It's easy to own one of these cars today, but the pioneers are why that is the case; and that's what the grand national story should be written about. You know what they say about pioneers? They get arrows in there asses...but those are the good stories that need to be told and preserved about these cars.
 

BuickMike

Money pit
I remember when I started hanging out with Buick folks back in the early / mid 90's. I got my subscription to the GSCA and went to local chapter meets. Back then I had my '68 GS 400 and most of the crowd were turbo Buick people. They spoke greek to me at the time. Always going on about BLM, TPS, MAF, boost, o2, haha. Anyway, I remember hearing about drama and politics surrounding the nats and those involved. Everyone seemed to be a sheep and follow whatever the newsletter said. When I went to have my big block built ('69 430), I went to a guy that had no ties to the Buick community. That was kind of frowned on, but this guy had built a lot of nice motors, had a Masters degree in engineering, and knew the do's and don't of Buick motors off the top of his head. I was given the 3rd degree by a few after they found out that I was not going to go with the standard "club cam" and that my builder had a custom ground Lunati that came from Torque Tech (or Dork Tech as they called it back then). A couple years later that cam profile popped up all over the place (116 lsa, 235 / 245 duration, .495 / .505 lift I think). I was told it wouldn't work out. With that cam and all the port work done to my '68 heads, my GS was stupid fast. The best part was that I kept a stock intake and exhaust manifolds (match ported) on it and it surprised the hell out of everyone. It was fun to pull away from someone with a 455 that had the 118 cam, Edelbrock or TA intake, headers and pop the hood afterwards. I miss that motor.
 

GNocide

rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated
Not a missing car.... Supposedly Bowling Green Customs got a bunch of stuff stolen from them one night at I think the 97 Nats. A prototype set of headers, a carbon fiber hood, some turbos, I think some injectors.. Im not really sure. Modern Muscle (Mike Licht) and Conley had a few things stolen too but BGC took the brunt of it. Anyways, we were there with Nelson's twin turbo car when it still had stock suspension. We made a pass, like a 9.0 or something and when he brought the car back to the pits, the next time he went to start it, the gear drive broke off the front of the engine.

There used to be this guy sold a lot of Stage 2 stuff from a place called (I think) Litchfield, Kentucky. Nelson's parents live in KY or did at the time and we were staying at their house since it was close to the track (and free). Nelson and Jeff were sort of friends so he offered to let us come to his shop and fix the car. We towed up there, tore the car down, fixed it and put it back together and then realized after all that that we bent some valves. We considered swapping heads but it was already like 4AM so we drove back to BG and didnt get back until like 7 AM.

So anyways, after the Nats, BGC , Conley and Modern Muscle all got anonymous letters in the mail on various companies stationary implicating Torque Tech (who didnt even ATTEND THE NATS THAT YEAR) and me. Well, Keith was home in Ga and I was in Litchfield so it was obviously someone trying to take advantage of the situation and throw the blame on us. All of the letters were postmarked in the state of Ga.. you can draw your own conclusion where it came from. I KNOW where they came from and theres more to the story Im not going to divulge without permission from the other people involved but yea.. thats the theft story. If you use your head, its not hard to figure out who had a grudge with Torque Tech and me and lives in Ga.

None of the stuff ever surfaced.. like NONE of it. Years later, I think most people kind of figured out it was all staged, probably for insurance money. Who would steal all that crap and then just sit on it, never to be seen again?
good story tell it again bro
wtf. this thread is whored up by haters-

is it possible that it isn't a movie about your ideals and experiences ;you know perhaps you don't know it all?
hey God bless the pioneers that have left us like Buddy Ingersol- who never helped me do a damn thing or shared 1 secret or piece of advise
like some people still living.
 
Top