Need advice, 274 Stage 2 engine

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
I have been following along and I saw that car when it was listed on BaT lol.

You have a really nice build going and the GNX is bad ass high miles or not I kind wish I would have bought one myself a few years ago before the prices went full insane.

For the type of car it looks like your building, which you plan to keep the factory AC for, do yourself a really huge favor and ditch/sell everything except the block and crank. Trust me you will thank me later for that advice. Unless you feel the need to make more than 1200hp there is ZERO reason to Stage 2 heads and deal with all the issues and fabrication problems you will have. Not to mention the nightmare of making those head even fit in the car with the factory AC air box. FYI the car in my sig ran those times in 2009 with production style GN1 heads in a 3450# GN with factory interior etc so you can make more power than the car you are building can even handle with production style heads. The newer TA heads or even the newer castings from Champion are way better than the crap I was running back then too.

I would not run Carillo rods that were in any roundy round engine in a turbo build with a S2 block, its just not worth it. Those are nice rods and would make a nice set for a someone building a nice 109 motor. You likely have a 3.625 stroke crank due to have less than a 4.020 bore which is where they would use the 3.59 crank. You will want to use a shorter rod so you wont have such a short comp ht on the piston and the pin up in the oil ring. Plus I am starting to think a shorter 6 or 6.30" rod is better in for these motors anyway. Oliver or Crower billet rods are both top notch and available, you will need on-center rods.

Good luck on the buiid I will be following along.
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Turbobuick
Thanks… and advice is well received and will be very seriously considered. I’m enjoying the process of the modifications and it was a big decision as my car has been with me since 1989.
as for the engine, I’m definitely going to push forward but it will move slow as I work way too much
If nothing else I’m enjoying getting to hang out with the “cool kids” !
You guys truly rock
 

750H.P.V6

Brutal 6 Racing
Joined
Sep 4, 2001
Tom,

Let us know when you get the crank out I'd be interested in the stroke length. I'm gonna put up $20 against Chris that the stroke length is less than 3.625". :cool:

Neal
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
I'll stick a rod and piston back in it tonight and measure it. I'm leaving the crank in for the moment because since its here and the chassis is here, I thought I'd mock up the oil pan, bolt it to a spare transmission and lower into the frame. I am curious as to how much trouble it would be to make the dry sump pump work in the stock frame. Thinking I need the front snout, balancer, serpentine pulley..ect.
 

rag231

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
What brand and how many stages is your dry sump pump? If its a Weaver you can send it to Stock Car Products and they can modify/ rebuild it for you . They supplied a bracket and I was able to use a 3 stage in the stock chassis of my GN. It was recommended to try to use the 4 stage but 2 of the bodies were changed out for different ones and it works great. I can try to locate the paper work on it.
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
This one is a stock car products...it has 3 scavenge sections and the pressure pump. We are into pumps like these pretty much every day with what we do here, so I'm not afraid of this one. I'm just thinking since I've hacked up this chassis anyway, maybe I can just use it as it is. My thoughts are to machine an adapter and bolt it to the front pulley where the fan used to bolt on, mount the cogged pulley there since I'm running a front mount anyway. If I use it, the belt will be first in line no matter what, with a spare riding in the trunk. If I have to move the pump forward, I'll make a pulley that is offset to ride over the front of the pump, like a deep water pump pulley...just thinking out loud.
 

turbobuick

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Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
I actually did just that for a vacuum pump. I had an alum lower crank pulley with an adapter to use the stock IC fan I mounted a pulley to and then reverse mounted the pump on a bracket above the steering box. It works well other than the pulley is to big and it over spins the pump but I bleed off vacuum with a valve. I will see if I have a pic I can post if not I can snap one of the crank pulley next time I have the car out.

FYI I really like and would recommend the new ATI balancer for these motors. It is a really nice piece and I used one on the 3.8 S2 motor in my T-type feel its a much nicer piece than the BHJ. If you buy the ATI it comes with an alum lower crank pulley along with a bolt on timing ring. Since ATI uses a Chevy style 3 bolt hub arrangement to attach the pulley and Buick uses a 6 bolt. The 3 bolt style crank mandrels are pretty easy to find if you want to run and configure your own pulley system and not use the alum pulley ATI supplies to work with the stock GN serpentine belt.

Also DannyBee will have belt drive set ups in stock by August. They have all the parts just waiting on crank pullies. Here are a few pics for FYI. The first pic is two motors I had, the one on the right is one of the two production head motors i had for my car when I was racing. I had DLS build a custom crank trigger belt drive dist set up for it. It used a single stage oil pump with a scavenge pump for the turbo. I have some better pics at home of that set up I can post later it was really nice but unfortunately I never ran it as I bailed on the drag radial car I was building in 2016. The motor on the right was a S2 head alum TA motor I had with a TA/Duttwieler oil pump set up. It also used a crank mandrel pulley system but had a normal production style front cover and they also ran a vacuum pump. The last pic is the motor that is in my car now with a production front cover water pump and Duttwieler oil pump.
 

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turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Right now I am too stunned to conjur up a reply...wow. The only thing better is if you guys go rock climbing and I get to come along, I'll make the sandwiches...
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Tom,

Let us know when you get the crank out I'd be interested in the stroke length. I'm gonna put up $20 against Chris that the stroke length is less than 3.625". :cool:

Neal
Should have bet more....3.590" stroke x 4.015" bore
Turbobuick mentioned a 6.00" to 6.300" rod. Since the pistons are going to be a custom order, whats the down side to simply using an off the shelf BBC rod? Maybe a 6.135" or 6.385" . I can narrow the big end here either in the lathe or with a surface grinder. Now to show my ignorance further...would there be a negative to using a .990 pin verses the .927? I'm thinking since a turbo application pushes everything down RPM wise, the weight is not as much the factor , rpm being more in BBC territory. Let me know thoughts on this. I had a set of Olivers in a 565 years back, so I know they will take 1,000 +
PS..Turbobuick...I'm guessing you were like me watching the Busch car on BAT..I was like "I'm gonna steal this thing" thinking it was the wrong car for that crowd. You can see I bailed at $8,100 as my plans were falling apart..buy car..sell car..motor for free..yeah right. My company owner bought it knowing I wanted the motor and already found a buyer for the car. I was wondering if any other TB people had seen it.

This is my '86 just before I took it all apart to molest it...I look at this photo and wonder what I was thinking ...
Tom
 

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turbobuick

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Jun 18, 2001
Damn looks like I owe Neal might have to take a trip to Sunny San Diego.

I believe the BBC rod journal diameter is the issue with cutting the crank pin down, dont forget those rods share a crank pin unlike an even fire V6 with individual crank pins.

You sure you want to take that really clean really nice GN that far?
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Yup.. your right , I had in my mind the big end was the same on the chevy rod. I’m really in awe of what you have by way of power plants , you must have been at it a while. I saw your message and gives me something to think about. My GN has 128,000 miles and no plans to ever sell it. More than that you see what I’ve done to the frame already. Goal is to try to modify in a way that ride quality and appearance remains somewhat factory. I’m going to put a lot of extra effort into the mini tub so it is not noticeable unless you really know your gbodies. The not going with coil overs or 9” Ford was all part of this decision making. Once I bought the GNX it put me over center to move ahead with mods to the 86.
PS… if you google gnx 084 it links to a video the previous owner made. I randomly ran across the video and contact him through Vimeo and was able to purchase it.
regards
Tom
 

turbobuick

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Jun 18, 2001
Lol, yes I have been at it awhile since the beginning really got out of it for a few years and came back recently. Its a pretty convoluted story too and I dont want to clutter up your thread with all my stories lol! I have an interest in your thread since I am taking on a similar project this fall and looking for fresh ideas. I sold my TSO car in 2010 and the guy who bought it did nothing with it other than store the car. I got it back in April this year and while it looks EXACTLY like the day it left sitting and time have not been kind to it. I am planning on ripping the entire car apart and building something new and exciting out of it.

Back to your story the work you did on your frame looks fantastic and I am looking forward to seeing the finished project. Believe it or not the frame my old race car is pretty much all stock other than a mild frame notch a basic 8.50 cage and a single crossbrace above the rear to mount the rear coilovers. I just did a pro-touring bolt on UMI/Ride Tech/Viking CO suspension on my T-type which turned out really nice. I am looking to take it to the next level with my GN build this fall.

Thats a really cool story and video on your GNX!
 

rag231

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Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Chris, Thanks for showing every one my twin turbo setup!!!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: The motor has performed extremely well.
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Thats a really cool story and video on your GNX!
Well, the cool part is that the car sold at auction for the whopping sum of $4,200.00 ...not a typo. I have the original US Marshall sale catalog , the bidders auction paddle and government bill of sale. I spoke with the buyer that confirmed all details and that he had regularly serviced the car for a law enforcement agency prior to it blowing a head gasket which is what sent it to auction. The car is meticulously detailed and was painted by a well know Buick GS painter in Ohio. I take no credit for any of this, it was all the previous owner.
Keep the stories coming, its nice to see what other people are doing...
 

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750H.P.V6

Brutal 6 Racing
Joined
Sep 4, 2001
Tom,

Your question about the BBC rods brings up a story from about 20 years ago. I bought 5 billet cranks from Crower that were originally part of an order for Mike at TA. Crower screwed them up by machining them with 2.200" rod journals instead of the 2.250" Buick journal. Mike told them he didn't want them so I got a pretty good deal on them. :) My thought was if you're buying custom rods anyway who cares.

Neal
 

turbinetom

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2019
Well we are just sitting here talking and about 6 months ago I sold a set of crower billet rods I had from a bbc that had Chrysler rod size on the crank. I realize now that’s why I thought I could use a bbc rod. I had them for years and think I got $200 or so on eBay. I think I could have narrowed the big end but they are gone now
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
Chris, Thanks for showing every one my twin turbo setup!!!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: The motor has performed extremely well.
Thats too funny! I forgot you bought that stuff off me. I am gld to hear you got it together and running. I forget wasn't it twin 70s?
 

750H.P.V6

Brutal 6 Racing
Joined
Sep 4, 2001
Well, the cool part is that the car sold at auction for the whopping sum of $4,200.00 ...not a typo. I have the original US Marshall sale catalog , the bidders auction paddle and government bill of sale. I spoke with the buyer that confirmed all details and that he had regularly serviced the car for a law enforcement agency prior to it blowing a head gasket which is what sent it to auction. The car is meticulously detailed and was painted by a well know Buick GS painter in Ohio. I take no credit for any of this, it was all the previous owner.
Keep the stories coming, its nice to see what other people are doing...
The fact that no no else bid more that $4200 for a real GNX is absolutely amazing! Beautiful car!! I always wanted one but couldn't afford one. Now they are really out of reach from a price standpoint. :(

Neal
 
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