My Experience with Brian Lorenz "Limited87"

ALBERTAN

Resident Window Licker
I’ve had this story hanging over my head for a while. For the longest time, I just didn’t want to even think about it, and the car has sat for the past two years. Then as time went by, the importance of telling the story seemed to fade…the money’s gone and I’ve just sort of chalked it up to experience. But because the seller has been such a prick about the whole thing, and because he works on these cars for other people and has endless possibilities to screw others, I figured I should post up the story and let people make their own decisions. It’s fairly long, as I think if you are going to call out people here, you should be able to prove you have a reason. We have a right to know if someone is likely to screw us on a deal. But the he said she said around here for guys like Brian Weaver and others without any real proof is sort of pointless in my opinion.

I’m posting this in the Lounge so that more people can see it, and because these sorts of tales usually find their way in here. If the Mods want to move it elsewhere, so be it. On with the show…


The Backstory

Brian Lorenz and I had been friends for many years, although we had never met. I think it probably started when I contacted him years ago with an interest in buying his Sage Limited. It wasn’t for sale, but in hindsight I think offering GNX money for that Limited probably set the wheels in motion for the events that followed. At any rate, we enjoyed discussing TRs in general and Limiteds in particular. We stayed in touch occasionally over a period of five years or so. I would contact him from time to time when I was looking for a nice Limited as he is plunked in the hot bed for these cars, and I am about as far away as you can be on this continent. He was also my single best source of information when I was compiling the Limited Registry. Everything was good until he told me he had found me a car…


The Deal

I guess I contacted Brian sometime in the spring or early Summer of 2012. I’m not sure exactly why I had called him, but I mentioned as usual that I was still looking for a nice Limited (Brian knew how picky I was from our previous conversations. He knew I was looking for a show car). He mentioned that he had come into possession of a Limited he used to own, but had previously sold to a local fellow. This fellow was quite into the Buick scene for a brief period of time, but had lost interest and offered the car back to Brian. Brian explained to me that he had done some mods to the car with the owner, but it they were minor mods and the car could easily be returned to stock. Brian sent me the pictures in the link below, explained to me how well it fit what I was looking for as a show car with a few mods, and offered to me for $18,000USD.

http://albertan.smugmug.com/Cars/My-1987-Buick-Turbo-Regal/24455386_JR5qDp#!i=1994857637&k=9QQK2vc

Now I’m going to say right now, I took Brian 100% at his word and let down my guard big time, basically abandoning the due diligence I have taken with the dozen or so other cars I have imported from the US. We had many conversations at length about what sort of car I was looking for. And over the years he had picked apart so many other cars I was considering that I know in hindsight were much nicer than this white Limited. So when he told me this car was “The One”, I just didn’t think I had any reason to doubt the guy I considered a friend and an authority on these cars as he stood in front of it extolling its virtues to me on the phone. Because it takes weeks for an international cheque to clear, and because I wasn’t sure if I was going to pick the car up or have it shipped to me, I had to send the money to Brian before I ever saw the car in person. $18,000USD…the most paid for a Limited in recent recollection. This car should have been…ummm…nicer.

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The Pickup

My oldest daughter was on an athletic scholarship playing Division I hockey in Erie, PA at the time, a couple of hours from Brian’s house. So I decided to kill two birds with one stone and make the 2400 mile trip (one way) to pick the car up in person and take my daughter back to school. During the trip, board member rafael vasquez put me onto another Limited in Michigan (Thanks Raf) and I made a rather substantial detour to go look at this car. I wound up spending several hours with the original owner talking to him about his car, taking a couple hundred photos of the car, and even taking it out for a test drive. This is the car I had been looking for…

http://albertan.smugmug.com/Cars/TRL018/24648924_tt9nj7#!i=2014788171&k=5z7sgZp

I reluctantly left Michigan with an empty trailer, not because I didn’t think Brian would give me my money back (he wouldn’t have, as you’ll see in a bit), but because I felt I had made a commitment to take the car, and I honor my word. I called Brian to tell him about my delay and reschedule a time to come to his place the following day. He works nights, and as I was due to arrive at his place at 2am, he took the night off. 2am is not the time to be looking at cars. But I was in the middle of a 5,000 mile journey and didn’t think there was anything to worry about. I mean this is Brian Lorenz right?

I took one look at the car in his garage and knew it was a flip. I was tired and disappointed, but I didn’t say anything. We spent more time just BS’ing and going over the pictures of the red D84 car (which of course he quickly dismissed as not worth anywhere near the same money as his white Limited. All in all it was a good visit. I enjoyed seeing the sage car in person (another big let down to be honest) and the brown D84 car which remains one of the nicest TRs I have seen.

I came back later in the morning to go with Brian to the title office. I was kind of surprised that he didn’t have the title already. But the whole American title thing is a needlessly complex issue I’ve never understood. We got back to his place and proceeded to load the car up. I think the car stalled twice getting it in the trailer. Hmmmmm. Then as I got out and prepared to strap it down, Brian mentioned “Oh, by the way, don’t ever put it in low gear while you’re moving.” Are you kidding me?!? This thing has a trans brake in it. ^&%#. I never said anything because 1) I am the stereotypical polite Canadian, and 2) My LB7 Duramax was smoking and I knew the factory injectors were about to let go any time (they did shortly after I got home thank God), so I had asked Brian if I could leave the trailer at his place and pick it up on the way back from PA. So off I went 2000+ miles home with the wrong car in the trailer. If only I had known then just how wrong it was…






 

ALBERTAN

Resident Window Licker
Back Home

In order to register the car, it has to pass an out of province inspection. It’s a thorough exam that shouldn’t be terribly difficult to pass. But if it fails, you only have one week to bring the car up to compliance or you have to get it out of the province. On a hunch, I asked the shop to do the inspection, but not enter it in the government’s system. That way if it failed, I could just take it home with no rush to deal with any issues. It’s a good thing I did. The shop quoted me $2,500 (not including the dead battery and broken digital dash) to fix the problems with the car. I have included a scan of the bill below:

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So I took the car home, and had a good look at it…a really good look at it…too little too late I know. I made up a list of issues with the car and sent it to Brian to discuss on the phone later, as I was in the middle of travelling back and forth between our main residence and a second property. The car wouldn’t run at anything other than idle until it was warmed up. It died as soon as it was put in gear. And once warmed up it wasn’t much better. When I called Brian and brought this main concern up (remember he has done all the mechanical work and "tuning” on this car), his first response was that it was too cold up here and that’s why it ran poorly. The temperatures up here is August are in the 70’s, so that didn’t really fly. And then he had the nerve to say…and this I will take laughing to my grave…that I just couldn’t drive it because it made too much horsepower for me. Now this is quite funny because for years it has been in my signature here, and I know Brian knew but must have forgot, that my daily driver in the summer is an 800HP stroked and blown six speed Z06 vette. So now I’m getting kind of irritated. This guy sold me a POS TR that stalls half a dozen times trying to turn it around in the driveway. And he’s blaming it on my driving skills! So we proceeded to go over the issues I had emailed him previously. I don’t recall his exact response to the list, but I know it was the typical brush off as me making a big deal out of nothing. So I offered to have the car shipped enclosed back to him at my expense if he would give me my money back. Nope. He wasn’t interested. He wouldn’t give me my money back (which is why I mentioned above that I never would have got it back at his house either IMO) and he wouldn’t man up and even offer to help with the necessary repairs to get the car on the road. No big surprise that I heard he’s built himself a new shop since I bought the car.

I also heard something else interesting back in the Fall of 2012. I was probably most active with the Limited Registry around this time, and came across a few Ohio members that claimed to know a bit more about the history of this car. I was told by two different TR guys in Ohio (both are/were members here but I will leave it to them to chime in if they wish) that it was commonly known in the area that this car had been hurt at the track and that is why its owner had “lost interest” with the car. The Carfax supports that, as the car only had 2,500 miles put on it since 2004.

i-RpmbF8C-XL.jpg


I did eventually track down the previous owner after finding his contact info under the front seat. He claimed that he had never had an issue with the car. He was a nice enough fellow. But who knows what deal he had made with Brian?

And so, frustrated, I parked the car for a couple of years up on a lift and ignored it. And the Limited Registry. And anything else to do with these cars.
 
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ALBERTAN

Resident Window Licker
Time to Sell

It took a few years, but my interest in these cars has returned. I need to get this car out of the stable to make room for others. And I made a vow long ago never to sell someone else my problems. Knowing the car has some significant mechanical issues, I took it to my engine builder/tuner five hours away to find out what was wrong with it. The IAC was shot, which did start to explain the poor idle. But the shop knew something more was wrong as soon as I fired it up on the trailer. The valve train didn’t sound right to him. I didn’t pick up on it as I am used to the sewing machine sound of a big HP LS motor at this point. And I am admittedly not hugely mechanically inclined to begin with. They took the car in the shop and found all the push rods were bent and the lifters weren’t oiling properly. This explained the poor idle…the car wasn’t pulling proper vacuum. So after deciding that the rest of the motor was ok, I put another $3,000 into the car and took it home.

i-GhgKj2n.jpg


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I sent another email to Brian a few weeks ago, and got the usual response…

-------- Original message -------- From: Dean Higson <dhigson@telusplanet.net>Date: 03/02/2015 11:57 PM (GMT-05:00) To: fastnovass@aol.com Subject: White Limited
Hey Brian,
We haven’t talked in a while since I’ve been so disappointed in the white Limited that you dumped on me that I just let all my Buicks sit for a year and a half. Anyways, it’s time to move on and sell the turd so I took it in to get looked at. I know you thought the problem with the car not being able to idle out of my driveway was because it just had too much power for me and I wasn’t a good enough driver (even though my DD in the Summer is an 800HP 6 speed ‘Vette…). It turns out the IAC was shot. That could have been from before or after you sold me the car, although it never idled when cold from day one. What I found even more interesting though was that most of the pushrods were bent and weren’t letting the valves open up enough to pull enough vacuum to run properly, and multiple damaged lifters weren’t oiling . The car doesn’t have two miles on it since leaving your acreage. Strange that someone as knowledgeable as yourself didn’t pick up on that loud valve train tick from all the bent rods while you had the car in your possession. My engine guy knew something was wrong with the car before I got it off the trailer. I’ve included the invoice for $3,000 to get the car in running order. Another $500-$1000 and I should be able to register it so that I can sell it.
I know you said not to talk about the car online as it would bring the value down. Some things are worth more than money, and I’m going to take a $10,000 loss on the car anyways. So I’m getting things in order. I just thought you’d like a heads up to have your response ready on TB.com. Cheers.
Dean Higson
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG -
www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/9254 - Release Date: 03/08/15

Spin it however you want Dean.. I'm more than ready. Cheers.





So I'm kinda looking forward to Brian's response, since I haven't been able to get an honest answer from him about this car from Day 1. I'm sure he'll say the car was fine when he sold it to me, and it's been over two years since then. I think I've documented that it wasn't fine and explained why it's taken me so long to post about this matter. I've included a photo below that shows the car has around 30 miles more on it today than when the Bill of Sale was done up before I left to pick it up. I think I've explained those miles with its trips to shops and dyno time get it running properly. Anyone is welcome to run a Carfax on it and see that it has never been registered in Canada yet....because it can't be.

i-hFTkJjF-XL.jpg


In the end, I am done with the car. I will complete the repairs required to bring the car up to the level I thought it was when I bought it, regardless of cost, and then I will sell it. The car will be in the hands of someone who appreciates it. And Brian will remain forever in my rearview mirror. I hope this information helps anyone else who may consider dealing with Brian in the future.
 
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deezdad

Well-Known Member
Dean, sorry to hear of the car troubles, but just remember they are just that, car troubles. The way your handling yourself in this matter says alot about your character, guys like you have a way of coming out on top in the long run, regardless of how bitter it tastes in the present. FWIW i can relate to your story to a point, put blind loyalty into a reputable Buick guy selling a TR and was disappointed shortly after purchasing, stick to your guns and it'l taste even sweeter in the future. Good luck and Happy Easter.
 

Mike E

Mr. Badwrench
I hope it's some Canadian money issue, but $135 per hour for labor, $500 for a set of lifters and $96 for spark plugs. $13 a quart for joe Gibbs oil. I think you might have been screwed, but not necessarily by the subject of this thread.

From the pictures, it does look like a pretty nice car.
 

turbotroy

Active Member



During the trip, board member rafael vasquez put me onto another Limited in Michigan (Thanks Raf) and I made a rather substantial detour to go look at this car. I wound up spending several hours with the original owner talking to him about his car, taking a couple hundred photos of the car, and even taking it out for a test drive. This is the car I had been looking for…

http://albertan.smugmug.com/Cars/TRL018/24648924_tt9nj7#!i=2014788171&k=5z7sgZp







PM Sent!
 

rafael vasquez

Well-Known Member
Dean how's it going my Canadian friend:)

What f@&$ up story I'm sorry u had to go through that.

If ur ever here in Orange county California I'll take you out for some great food :)
 

t-typinator

Active Member
Is the seller knowledgeable about these cars,Is it possible he wouldn't have known about the bent pushrods,lifters, etc ?




never mind i just re-read the first post
 
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Limited87

Active Member
Ok.. Here is the REAL story. There's really something wrong with Dean! He likes to twist things to his liking. I bent over backwards for this guy taking off work so he could show up at 2 am and spend HOURS looking at the car. To start he bought this car almost 3 years ago from me. He was at my house 3 different days!!!! Not 3 minutes.. 3 days!! All he had to do was say at ANY point he did not like the car and I would have gladly given him his money back!! He decides he wants to take it 3,000 miles away from me to Alberta Canada before he has a problem with it.. who does that?? A week later he sends me a PM complaining about every little thing under the sun about the car.. I mean it was almost down to bugs on the windshield. Everything he complained about you could see in person. If there was any issues HE had with the car they could be addressed when he was here for 3 days. He stood out in my drive way taking pictures of his college daughter POSING with the car for 20 minutes before HE loaded it into his trailer!! This is for a car he didn't like??!! WHO DOES THAT? He bought this car knowing FULL well the mods it had. It wasn't a 10-20k mile garage queen.. it was a car with almost 60k miles but still was a very nice car! I still have the email from 2012 listing EVERY single mod the car had I sent to him. To duplicate what this car had mods was over 10 grand!

DEAN told me HE was going to take this car back to 100% stock.. HIMSELF. I gave him every single stock piece that came off that car.. I mean EVERY piece. It filled his ENTIRE full size truck bed. Even the original heads were given to him untouched. It became apparent real quick with talking to him HE did not have the skill set to do ANY of this and he was over his head and was going to have to pay someone to do it for him. The receipts he has PAID to have work done pretty much tells that story. He has WAAAY over paid to have work done.. anyone who looks at those receipts can see that. He was taken by HIS shop.. not me.

As for my cars. The Sage car has won every single car show it has been to. The GSCA Nationals, The BPG Nationals, multiple Norwalk Buick shows, Cleveland Autorama, Summit Racing BOP nationals car shows to just name a few. For him to say it isn't nice should tell anyone who has EVER seen the car that this guy is a complete quack. The D84 car has the same resume as well.

I could go on and on posting up all the help I've given this guy for HIS Limited registry which has never surfaced. Gave him dozens of vins and dozens of picts of cars to which he has never done anything with. He still was sending me PM's for advise on parts, etc even after this car and I still was helping him. To ANYONE who knows me and what I do knows the quality of the work I put out, the quality of my stuff, how well my cars run, etc. I have been a member of this board since its inception.. clear back when the first board crashed in the late 90's. I have bought and sold thousands of parts, dozens of cars. Don't you think that in almost 20 years of doing this I would have several complaints, issues, etc.. Nope.. just Dean from Alberta Canada..
 

gs462

Active Member
I have know Brian for years, I work on my own cars so we've never had those kind of dealings but we have bought n sold parts to each other, for this guy to say Brians Green car is not gorgeous tells me hes not the best judge of a mint car Ive seen several of his cars and they're all TOP NOTCH. I also know many people who have had their cars worked on by Brian and have NEVER heard one bad word about the work. If this guy came to the house and accepted the car after he DID NOT WANT IT he's a FOOL. no way in HE77 Im buying something I don't want. No way no how, if it becomes a dispute you stop payment on the check and that's that. but don't take the car away and then complain, If he knew it had issues why not address them before you load the car on the trailer???
 

RobsIron

Silent but Violent
The last thing I want to do is get in the middle of this, but can't help myself.

Brian, how do you explain bent pushrods and no idle at time of pick up when you are so knowledgeable about TR's? Were you really prepared to give him $18k back at time of pick up?

Dean, Why did you accept it when it wouldn't even idle?? Red flag city for me. You were too 'nice' and should have handled it right then and there. Maybe you liked that 2 toned one a little too much.

Without hearing the responses I believe both have culpability and both should learn from it and move on.

I am super duper smart now because I have sacrificed many $ to achieve the knowledge I have due to the deals I have made. Street smarts is better and cheaper than college. Worth every penny. ;)
 
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Limited87

Active Member
The last thing I want to do is get in the middle of this, but can't help myself.

Brian, how do you explain bent pushrods and no idle at time of pick up when you are so knowledgeable about TR's? Were you really prepared to give him $18k back at time of pick up?

Dean, Why did you accept it when it wouldn't even idle?? Red flag city for me. You were too 'nice' and should have handled it right then and there. Maybe you liked that 2 toned one a little too much.

Without hearing the responses I believe both have culpability and both should learn from it and move on.

I am super duper smart now because I have sacrificed many $ to achieve the knowledge I have now on deals I have made. Street smarts is better and cheaper than college. Worth every penny. ;)

Rob, I cant explain any of that. I did not build this engine. Weber Racing Equipment did. I worked on the car for the owner back 2006. The car ran in the 10's. He states the previous owner HE talked to on his own said it always ran fine. Several board members seen and heard this car before I sold it. It ran fine.. it idled a little rough at ice cold start up. He is exaggerating the idle like he has everything else. It had a stock ECM with drivers, 55's, Reds 106 race chip and a stock GM mass air. It had ported Weber heads, billet 206/206, Weber ported intake, TE45a turbo, big front mount,etc, etc.. every one I've ever built with a set up like that ice cold idles sort of rough. To fix that we get rid it of the almost 30 year parts, reds chip and go to a FAST or BS3 fuel management system. I have no idea what he did with the car after it left here. Absolutely I had the money and if he wanted it back I would have given it back. If the guy doesn't like or want the car what other option is there?? Keep it and his money? Have you seen the picts he posted? The car is extremely nice! I'm going to post this list of things he sent me wrong with it after being here for 3 days and hours of looking at it. I agree with what you said about moving on. I moved on almost 3 years ago after he asked me for info on Limited's, help on all sorts of things, opinions, etc and now he posts this.
 

Limited87

Active Member
Now keep in mind.. This is after hours of being at my house on 3 different days.. taking dozens of pictures of his daughter posoing with the car in my driveway, then him pulling it into his trailer. He acknowledges that he knew alot about these things already but still lists them as problems he see's wrong with it.


Limited1.png

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Limited3.png

Limited4.png
 

RobsIron

Silent but Violent
Brian, thank you for your response. As heavily invested in this community as you are, you are bound to have a complaint eventually no matter what. Its the nature of the beast. Dean does have a well written version of his side with docs and it is believable, but we all know there are two sides to a story. Maybe you knew something maybe you didn't. I am a little surprised that Dean would want to take a known 10 second car back to stock.

Bottom line is a lot of time has passed and Dean is 'stuck' with the decision he made and it appears he has learned from it. My position here is to decrease the situation and reduce the drama that these type of threads always inflame. While I feel for Deans position I can only say buyer beware.
 

REAPER231

The Power of the Darkside!!!
I hope it's some Canadian money issue, but $135 per hour for labor, $500 for a set of lifters and $96 for spark plugs. $13 a quart for joe Gibbs oil. I think you might have been screwed, but not necessarily by the subject of this thread.

From the pictures, it does look like a pretty nice car.
x2 on that !!! I've known Brian for the last 2 yrs , met him out in Ohio at busher racing for a dyno session and when I needed c16 race gas for the dyno tuning he put out his own money for me , without me asking , he offered. Saying that sage green car is not impressive ? Really lol I mean I have pics of the car on my cell , I see a lot of faults in your post and think a private sale that you agreed to buy , that you sent money unseen then go pick car up and leave with car on trailer and drove off property means you own it ! Period ! Its up to the guy buying the car to look over and inspect every inch of it and drive it before paying for it . This isn't sears n Roebuck lol . This is a private sale between two and should be kept private . You wanna bitch to Brian bitch to him , aeems like you were too busy looking at his cars lol . That are ridiculously mint!!!! Be a man , not a cry baby , you left with car . Sell it and buy a new Toyota Camry . Because if you don't know how to work on these cars to some level like changing plugs and iac . You shouldn't own one . If I have a problem with a vendor or member on board , I don't bash them on a board . I deal with them directly good or bad . I don't need to cry to board members to make me feel better . I hate vendor bashing n member bashing it's classless . Good luck to you sir .
 

Limited87

Active Member
Brian, thank you for your response. As heavily invested in this community as you are, you are bound to have a complaint eventually no matter what. Its the nature of the beast. Dean does have a well written version of his side with docs and it is believable, but we all know there are two sides to a story. Maybe you knew something maybe you didn't. I am a little surprised that Dean would want to take a known 10 second car back to stock.

Bottom line is a lot of time has passed and Dean is 'stuck' with the decision he made and it appears he has learned from it. My position here is to decrease the situation and reduce the drama that these type of threads always inflame. While I feel for Deans position I can only say buyer beware.

Thanks Rob .. this is exactly what Cal and many others have said to me. If you sell enough of anything this is bound to happen sooner or later. Yes, I was surprised a dentist would even want to get his hands dirty.. apparently he doesn't because he pays every one to do everything for him. I certainly couldn't hide the car wasn't stock right?? He has had and has several TR's and knew exactly what he was looking at and buying. He liked the car he bought so well in Michigan on the way to picking this one up, he has already sold it also..
 

GNBRETT

Pelennor Fields
in my experience whenever someone creates a thread like this to point the finger its usually after they themselves have come to terms that they bought a used car that needed some repairs just like most all other used car purchases do and then get beat on the labor and or parts by paying way too much and wants to now blame the person he bought the car from lol.
 

ALBERTAN

Resident Window Licker
I hope it's some Canadian money issue, but $135 per hour for labor, $500 for a set of lifters and $96 for spark plugs. $13 a quart for joe Gibbs oil. I think you might have been screwed, but not necessarily by the subject of this thread.

From the pictures, it does look like a pretty nice car.

I'll deal with Brian's response, or lack thereof later. But I wanted to explain the numbers seen on some of those invoices. The world revolves around the U.S. dollar. So, not surprisingly, Americans don't have much of a concept of currency exchange.

I have Brian's address. So lets for giggles order a $115 adjustable fuel pressure regulator from Kirban's.

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/224/Billet Aluminum ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR #6547.html

I put in Brian's address, and it spits out $14.69 for shipping. OK, so that AFPR shows up on Bryan's doorstep with a receipt showing $129.69 (plus maybe some OH tax?)

Now I put my address in up here in Canada. I get $34.71 for shipping, more than twice as much. And we're at $149.71 out Dennis' door. But it gets better. Dennis used UPS, the most expensive shipper for brokerage charges. They will tack on the mandatory 6.1% duty, bringing that part up to $158.84. Now let's tack on UPS' fee for brokering the part across the border...roughly $20. Add another 2.7% for bond fees since UPS wasn't paid the duty in advance...$2.70. And we have a grand total of $181.54USD. So while Brian paid $129.69 to get the part on his doorstep, I will pay $181.54, almost 40% more. Now let's convert that to Canadian currency at a current exchange rate of around $1 USD = $0.75 Cdn. That $181.54 shows up on my statement as $242.05 Cdn. So you look at a part like an AFPR from Kirban's and expect it to cost $115. By the time I get it on my doorstep and it shows up on a Canadian invoice (the shop has to order from the States as well) the number shows up as $242.05.

The shop has to go through the same process ordering parts from the States. So there's nothing wrong with the prices of the parts I paid for...you're just not used to seeing things in Canadian dollars. The same applies to the labor rate. The shop rate is maybe $10/hr more than than a dealership. This is the premier shop within a five hour drive of where I live, and they have no problem getting clients at this rate.

So hopefully now we can move past this hang up on prices, Brian can stop trying to use it to attack my credibility, and we can move on to the real issue at hand in this matter.
 
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