Magic HP #

200MPHClub

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Joined
Jan 5, 2008
I'm in the process of beginning a build on my very first Buick motor (87 T-Type) for the purpose of Land Speed Racing and was wondering what it would take to turn out 1500HP...give or take. Right now according to some calculations this is around what it will take for me to get close to breaking some records in my engine class. Since I've never built one of these engines before I really don't know what is needed to get there. I have an idea about pieces and parts but would appreciate some input from what appears to be a very smart bunch of Buick Gurus.

Thanks

BTW, I'm sure the first thing you're going to mention is how much it will cost....so no need to go there I'll figure out how to pay for it.
 
You will need a stage 2 or equivalent engine block and a tube chassis set up extended high speed for starters. The best of everything will be needed if you want to run 1500hp for minutes at a time. I could see a project like this costing $200k or more.
 
Well, it all has to be done with a stock production car...no tube chassis and it will run for 7 miles...about 3 of them at top speed. I know it can be done as the current record holder in this class is running a TTA and went 256mph and in the altered class with the same car and engine has clipped 301mph on a Buick V6 built by Duttweiler Engineering. I know that there is a relatively new Aluminum 231ci block being built by TA Performance along with Ken but I was wondering what it would take staying away from their block as their built block (granted streetable and not race prep so I know it could be tweaked) makes about 800hp and costs 35K so I'm looking into what's possible using off the shelf parts.

As I said I'm not overly concerned with price at the moment.
 
Not much off the shelf could be used. Your real only choices for blocks are TA's aluminum and the old Buick Motorsports stage 2 on or off center blocks. The rest of the stuff you use will be pretty much all custom. You have to give us a mph goal to do any recs. The example you gave with the TTA is good but you will be dealing with a flying brick g-body. You will need a lot more hp to be able to punch a hole through the air. Im sure the TA had the best of everything. A high hp stage 2 with nearly all custom parts. This is assuming there is minimal air going under the car. You will need a lot of down force.
 
Shooting from the hip.....I would think you would want a short stroke high revving Stage II indy motor.... no 4.1 stoker motors... as you will need a shorter stroke to be able to survive the extended time the engine will be at a high RPM.... I would think you would be looking at 8000 RPM.... maybe more......big boost... dry sump oiling system and one hell of a cooling system.....unless you can run straight methanol....and at least 40 psi boost... That is a tall order for a little V6....

like I said... that is shooting from the hip....
 
Well, it all has to be done with a stock production car...no tube chassis and it will run for 7 miles...about 3 of them at top speed. I know it can be done as the current record holder in this class is running a TTA and went 256mph and in the altered class with the same car and engine has clipped 301mph on a Buick V6 built by Duttweiler Engineering. I know that there is a relatively new Aluminum 231ci block being built by TA Performance along with Ken but I was wondering what it would take staying away from their block as their built block (granted streetable and not race prep so I know it could be tweaked) makes about 800hp and costs 35K so I'm looking into what's possible using off the shelf parts.

As I said I'm not overly concerned with price at the moment.

That aluminum block is capable of making a LOT more than 800HP. Properly setup, will likely make more than what you're looking for. 1500HP in ANY engine is going to cost a ton of $$$ and off the shelf parts that can withstand that power level aren't going to save you any money either.
At minimum you'll need to start with a fresh StageII on-center, high rpm build, or the T/A block built the same. A set of indy heads would go a long way, but minimum StageII heads and a well designed sheet metal intake to match. And internals that can handle the sustained high revs you'll need.
 
I assume you're thinking about entering the "Silver State Classic" in Nevada.

There WAS a T-Type years ago in it, and won the top speed record I believe. Just over 200 mph. There was also a video shot from inside the car of that run. The video was shaking so much it was hard to see anything.

I used to have that particular video saved, but I assume I had it on an older computer as I can't find it on this one.

Perhaps someone else who's saved it can post it up or provide a link.

I Googled it....and came up with this so far, where the T-Type DNF...

Results, September 21, 1997! (results-97-sep-21_.htm)

and another one....oooooh this is such fun. :D I would like to find the video though.

http://www.silverstateclassic.com/results-may-99.htm

BINGO.

Silver State Video
 
Not really the classic but just time trialing in general. Starting at Maxton since I live on the East Coast, and then one day moving out to Bonneville to try and chase the real records.

BTW, thanks for the input. I am a little old school so I prefer to build stuff myself when I can versus just buying HP, but if it's cheaper just to buy the TA block then I might go that route.

Also as a side note, while I am saving up a gathering pieces to build the big motor, what HP number can be achieved on a Stage 1 block? 700hp? Again if built up properly.

Thanks
 
Not really the classic but just time trialing in general. Starting at Maxton since I live on the East Coast, and then one day moving out to Bonneville to try and chase the real records.

BTW, thanks for the input. I am a little old school so I prefer to build stuff myself when I can versus just buying HP, but if it's cheaper just to buy the TA block then I might go that route.

Also as a side note, while I am saving up a gathering pieces to build the big motor, what HP number can be achieved on a Stage 1 block? 700hp? Again if built up properly.

Thanks

There have been stage 1's making 1000hp in a drag race application. Its out of the question for the most part since it is limited by the bottom end and oiling features. You really need six bolted steel mains. Even stock blocks running in the 150's in full weight drag cars but thats for about 9 seconds at a time. How long could one of these handle the big hp number? You said 7 minutes:eek: . Thats not an easy task. Keep in mind that he TA block will limit your bore size. The short stroke long rod big bore engine is the way to go for longevity as Blazer stated. If you are allowed to run methanol i would strongly consider it. You could save yourself some $ fabbing the fuel system, intake plumbing, intake manifold and exhaust components. All the other parts are high $ stuff. You will need a serious stand alone to data log everything for tuning and reliability purposes.
 
Just a side note:

What about running E-85 if meth is not allowed? It has been known to produce some good hp #'s w/proper fuel delivery components. Also, you might want to locate one of the old buick power source books. It has a goodly amount of info on the production and stage motors along w/spec's. It also includes spec's on the indy motor and an imsa motor both rated at 800+ and operating at 8000+rpms. Hope this helps.:confused: :)
 
I'm actually waiting on my rule book to see what exactly is allowed. I believe to keep it in production class you can't use any additional power adders so I doubt running meth is an option, although E85 might be...don't know. This is all just me wanting to chase down a dream...so we'll see what happens. For the moment it would appear that a hunt is on for a stage 2 block and a whole bunch of pieces :D to make me go fast. While scrounging Stage 2 pieces I will overhaul the Stage 1 and see what is possible with this motor....I think that with a lot of boost and tall gears it should get through the 200mph mark which is the first goal :biggrin: Then will worry about getting to 300MPH :eek: which most likely will require switching to a TTA...but all in time. First to have the fastest buick on earth :cool:
 
I saved an article written up in an old issue of BGNRA about the same car that Chris Cairns is describing. I loved the stance of that car! It is a stage II motor built by Duttweiler that developed 967HP at 24lbs of boost. It has a 9 inch Ford rear with a 2.90:1 ratio which gave them a top speed of 204 as of the time the article was written. I don't have access to a working scanner right now but I can fax you the two page write up if you like.
MLH
 
Though I don't have much light to shed on the Stage 2 stuff, I was wondering if you had been to The Maxton Mile yet. You mentioned you might run it at Maxton but it is something you have to check out. I went last year for the first time and its just awesome. Though I am too young to have experienced it, it seems much like how drag racing may have been in its infancy. There is a lot of "out of the box" thinking used on many of the cars there with tons of ingenuity. It is not commercialized at all like drag racing has become and it just has a very down home flavor to it.

If you are just interested in setting records, you could pretty easily set a record at Maxton. Many of the records are pretty low or "soft". It seems you don't have too many budgetary concers, so I say go for it. Technically the Stage 2 components would not be allowed in production classes, but truthfully I don't think the tech inspectors would notice a difference. You should even be able to set a record in the production class with a Stage 1 build, as the record is in the 150-160 range for the standing mile.

While it won't hold a candle to what you are building, I have a '81 Regal built for the Classic Production class (E/CPRO) using a built naturally aspirated Buick V6. The record in that engine size class is very soft at only 97mph so I should be able to beat that this April there. If its just some records you want to break, check out Maxton.
 
If you go back into the old articles in this forum and the stage II forum you will see lots of info on what is a stage II, but briefly the stock 3.8 motors in the 86-87 cars used a "109" block. This can be built up to 700-1000 hp for drag racing but life at the upper end of that can be depressingly short. I don't know of anyone who has done endurance racing at hi hp with a stock block. Buick Motorsports as part of their Indy and Busch Grand National NASCAR support developed a much stronger block casting that included bosses for 6 extra head bolts per side, and were cast as either 3.8 or 4.1 L motors. One version was called the Stage I, and they were machined for two bolt cast main caps and the extra head bolt holes were not drilled and tapped so as received they only used the stock 8 bolts per side. These were off center so stock intake manifolds and accessories would line up, and used stock style wet sump oiling. Most users drilled the extra head bolt holes and used 14 bolt heads. For drag racing these might be rated at 800-1000 hp but all these numbers are just guides. The same block casting, machined for steel 4 and even 6 bolt main caps and with the extra head bolt holes drilled and tapped was called the Stage II. There were many small variations over the years involving on and off center, with or without an internal oil pickup provision, etc. Several of these have hit over 1300 hp on the dyno, maybe as much as 1500 hp. These were the blocks the NASCAR and Indy guys used, and at the 500-600 hp level would last many races and maybe even a few seasons. All of these have been out of production by Buick for several years so the supply has been steadily dwindling. There are some excellent blocks to be had, for a price, and a lot of used up junk with lots of repairs and sleeves - you definitely need some experience and good advice before buying anything. A few years ago TA Performance came out with their aluminum block, with many structural improvements over the Stage II's. No one knows what the limit is on them but I know some have been over 1000 hp already on the dyno. Apparently some of them are used in off road dune-buggy style vehicles but I don't know what the durability at full power is like. Building a very strong stock 109 block motor, buying all new parts, is going to run $10K+. There aren't many Stage I blocks left, and the Stage II is a good bit stronger for about the same price, so I wouldn't really consider one for your project. You can get a dyno tested crate motor from someone like Duttweiler for $25-35k, or you can scrounge and dig and come up with good used parts and maybe only spend $15k to get a running Stage II motor. Used Stage II motors advertised as running in good shape seem to be advertised for $8-12K and come up for sale here every few months, maybe.

The best thing you could do would be to call Kenny Duttweiler and talk with him, since he has built lots and lots of Buick V6's for lots of different applications, and can give you realistic advice on durability and hp levels. Whatever you do, please post your results as we all love to hear about Buicks in competition.
 
I enjoy reading Carl's replies... to just about anything..... he will probably forget more about the turbo V6's than most of us will ever know.

Thanks Carl.
 
Thanks a lot....very good summary of info. I'm not into wasting people's time so I won't be contacting Ken any day soon but he is on a very short list of people I've found who have built some killer Buick V6's and he actually built the motor in the car that currently holds the records at Bonneville of 256 in a TTA driven by John Raines. But anyway thanks for the info and I have started looking for Stage II blocks...other than here or a couple of the other Buick boards, is their anywhere else you might find one? I found one on ebay but it had some damage to the block so I've opted to stay away....do you ever see them on something like racingjunk.com?

Thanks again...this already looks like a good group of people :cool:
 
Though I don't have much light to shed on the Stage 2 stuff, I was wondering if you had been to The Maxton Mile yet. You mentioned you might run it at Maxton but it is something you have to check out. I went last year for the first time and its just awesome. Though I am too young to have experienced it, it seems much like how drag racing may have been in its infancy. There is a lot of "out of the box" thinking used on many of the cars there with tons of ingenuity. It is not commercialized at all like drag racing has become and it just has a very down home flavor to it.

If you are just interested in setting records, you could pretty easily set a record at Maxton. Many of the records are pretty low or "soft". It seems you don't have too many budgetary concers, so I say go for it. Technically the Stage 2 components would not be allowed in production classes, but truthfully I don't think the tech inspectors would notice a difference. You should even be able to set a record in the production class with a Stage 1 build, as the record is in the 150-160 range for the standing mile.

While it won't hold a candle to what you are building, I have a '81 Regal built for the Classic Production class (E/CPRO) using a built naturally aspirated Buick V6. The record in that engine size class is very soft at only 97mph so I should be able to beat that this April there. If its just some records you want to break, check out Maxton.

Yeah I'm starting at Maxton just because it's close and I've never done anything along the lines of Time Trialing before so it's a good place to cut my teeth. And yes I know the records at Maxton are soft, but it's also a different world to do a standing mile vs a running mile where you have 3 or 7 miles to build up speed, but still should be fun and I'm fairly certain that by the end of the year I will own the Production E/PS category unless good ol' Murphy decides to pop his head into the game. Was hoping to make it out for the Top Speed Challenge April 5th, but just got the kabash put on that by the misses, but I'll be their for sure this summer.
 
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