Looking for Stage 2 header ideas

turbobitt

turbobitt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
I'm in the market to have some headers fab'd up and looking for ideas. My ATR's had 1 7/8 primary tubes but wondering if that is really what's best or would smaller be better. I'm planning on converting over to a stainless v-band exhaust housing also.
I'm thinking that maybe would be better to have both headers discharge forward with no under car crossover but just entertaining the thought go now. Would like to see pictures if anyone has something they feel is really good.
AG


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I can't believe that there hasn't been a jig made up for headers yet. I have a set of twin headers ( non ATR's ) that I plan to have the collector flange cut off and v bands attached to . I feel that it gives me the most amount of mounting options. I believe if the headers are made to that point the hard part is over, then people can design around water and oil pumps , alt mounts, etc.....
 
Allan, do you ever go to www.speedtalk.com? Mostly n/a sbc stuff, but lots of good info. One of the regulars is Calvin Elston, screen name exhausted. Builds high end NASCAR headers and lots of other stuff as well including turbo motors. Very friendly and gives great advice. Will make your headers, tell you how to size them so you or someone else can make them, or anywhere in between. Recently he has started an "exhaust 101" web site where he is writing tutorial articles. I haven't looked at it yet but I doubt there is anything turbo-specific yet. The main forum is "engine tech", do some searching and reading if you haven't already found the site, and maybe get in touch with him for some advice.
 
rag231 said:
I can't believe that there hasn't been a jig made up for headers yet. I have a set of twin headers ( non ATR's ) that I plan to have the collector flange cut off and v bands attached to . I feel that it gives me the most amount of mounting options. I believe if the headers are made to that point the hard part is over, then people can design around water and oil pumps , alt mounts, etc.....
Click to expand...

NO WAY!

I would like to share my limited experience. However, it does not apply to a single turbo application. But this shouldn't matter much though. It should work for you as well. Forget the headers for now!

If you think it's better to have the headers built first, I promise you, It's headers that are the easy part!!!! Not the rest!!! The headers are just one thing and they have no external moving parts or lines to get pinched or wires and hoses to get burned or pulleys that need to be aligned.

First drop in the motor. Mock-up and put together your entire set-up. Pulleys, water-pump, fuel system....everything. THEN, mount your turbocharger where you want it by building a permanent bracket or stand that securely fits it within your set-up. Of course, while doing this you should somewhat consider the necessary required real estate needed for the headers. But leave the details for later. Then when all is done, you can build (or have the headers built) to connect the dots.

You build pipes into a house. You don't build a house around pipes! Same concept. Kinda.

Do not let the headers dictate your turbo location. Do not be forced to build headers that need to support the weight of a 35 lb turbo when they are 1600 degrees. When complete, you should be able to remove the headers with the turbo in place. Do not get caught having to come up with ways to work around someone else's idea. Don't worry about giving yourself different mounting options with slip connections or v-bands. You won't need them. You will have everything right the first time. You won't kill yourself thinking about all the little things that just don't fit right.

If the header builder is competent, let him work it out. I'm not that bright. I never built a set of headers before in my life and I was still able to do it this way with very little issues to work out later. Biggest problems I've had in about 10 years was a few heat shields and aluminized wire loom requirements in a few areas.
 
My largest and most time consuming expense has always been the header fabrication it self. Most people have not re invented the wheel and tried to mount turbos on the drivers side of the car, so the location has been narrowed down as to where the turbo will be mounted and down pipe issues. Remeber racing rules were dictating forward facing turbos and turbo flange type. I dont recall a low mounted turbo (below the fender) unless they were a tube chassis type car. ATR built a "legacy" around complete kits, sure it had its issues around spark plug accessibility but if a set pops up now for sale it's gone. Hooker and Dawson all built excellent stage 2 headers. I saw some just this past week at BG. I feel that many people will take the path of least resistance. Spend $2500+ for a custom set of headers that doesn't have any proven hp benefit + cost of downpipe fabrication or buy a set (using ATR as an example at the time) for under a grand and building your front accessories around it. I will admit in the past few years with the advent of the large frame 4788's and Borg turbos etc... that weight has become a bigger issue and pushing them a little further forward and a little more towards the passenger side to accommodate 5 inch down pipes. My original twin set up gave my the option to switch between a pair of Billet 62's and a 4276 turbo with just a few pipe changes. I wanted to run in a local class that only allowed 1 power adder. It suited my needs perfectly.
 
If you can buy a set of someones headers for a given number of dollars that makes it worth it, then by all means, this is the way to go. But you said you wanted a custom set, and a custom set should only be what you want. Not the header builder. If your gonna have them built, then the way to go is have them built to your turbo's location as it is independently supported. An inch to the left or right or up and down makes a difference. besides I believe this is the path of least resistance. I would never try to lead a Buick brother in the wrong direction.

As far as ATR headers go, The whole reason why I built my own was because I wasn't going to be governed by what ATR thought was the best way. I used Champion heads for a twin turbo street application so they weren't even an option. Besides, I didn't want to remove my headers every time I do a spark plug change.:eek: At the time, It seemed like the best way for most. Not for me. I friggin hated those headers from day one. The whole configuration was a pain in the ass. I watched Jack and Brian Cotton complain every time they had to work around those things. Then came the friggin grinder, torch and welding machine to tweak them to what they should be. In the end most sets of ATR headers turned out looking like Frankenstein's monster.
 
If you want headers to go under the oil pan like stock, you can do that without accessories. If you want them forward facing, it's best to have the accessories built first. Lots of people can build headers, very few have the equipment to build custom accessory brackets.

I considered building a jig for stage 2 headers, but it would take at least 5 sets of headers to justify it. Even then it would be $2K for a set of headers and the crossover was still DIY. I couldn't get more than 2 guys that were even considering buying (Hemi8 tried also and didn't get anyone interested). There just isn't any demand for stage 2 headers. At $2K your only $1K away from completely custom. Turbo buick guys are too accustomed to $1K for a set of off the shelf stock style headers. That will never happen for stage 2 headers. It takes $800 in material alone to build a set.

At $3k for a set of custom headers, those cheap stage 2 heads don't look so appealing anymore.
 
I don't think it really matters if the driver side runs under the engine vs forward facing then merged. I run mine under the engine to fight heat in the engine bay. Running the cross over under the crank pulley was around 30* hotter engine bay temps vs running the cross-over under the oil pan. Cruising doesn't make a huge difference but sitting in the staging lanes all that heat stays in the engine bay.
 
My opinion on forward facing is serviceability. I'm always servicing the trans and hate messing with the crossover. Would also like to make the turbo location more central if possible for a more equal length tube.


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You thinking about something like this? I know Conley's built these. Stainless Built I believe in the late 90s. Car I just picked up.
 

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GBGN1 said:
You thinking about something like this? I know Conley's built these. Stainless Built I believe in the late 90s. Car I just picked up.
Click to expand...
Yes this is really close to the direction I want to go in. Thanks for posting pics.
AG.
 
Interesting headers.. have these been in a car? curious about the downpipe clearance.
 
Yes there were two racing car (109) for two seasons
and have not had any problems or cracks .....
we make headers stock, T4 or T6 flange...single or twin scroll..
Custom headers.jpg Custom headers 2.jpg Custom headers stock turbo flange.jpg
 
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