HOTAIRGNX548 1/8 MILE TIME

[Boost231]

No draw through's in my garage Charlie. Just the Stage, Monte, and truck and hopefully it will stay that way. So, you've been talking about quite a few mods that you've been testing, is your car running now? I've been curious to see some test results from one set up to another. How are you testing these different set ups? Dyno tuning, track times, flow benches, etc? There are a lot of people on this board that like to run their mouths about how "we are testing this and that in our shop" and such. I know the internet is an easy way for people to try to make themselves feel more important than they really are, and sometimes that's cool, I guess. BUT right now I have some things I'm trying to work out on a Hot Air that has already put down some serious low boost dyno numbers. With Tom @ Champion flaking out on things lately, I cant even get ahold of him. I need to put in some solid tunes and this debate over the intake in this section is so up and down and "secretive" and all over the place, Its a joke. We have an issue with knock after 22 psi and this knock shouldn't be there. I've tuned and done what I can but there's something else going on. I don't know if its the Champion hot air intake. It may be. I'm wondering if this intake was even tested at all before it was put out there as an "improvement." I don't know if compression ratio has an effect with one intake over another.

Why in this section, is there only a few people that will actually show results, ideas, and such? I've had my hand on plenty of builds in IC cars and yes I've come up with a few ideas that have made serious changes but most of my success with getting a car faster is from reading, then maye putting my own little twist on it. Or just doing exactly what someone else did because it was a great idea. This section lacks a lot because the Hot Air cars aren't very popular, there isn't a whole lot of people going fast, and quite frankly not a lot of people care about hot airs. Some of us do though. I used to IC them. With the difference that E85 makes in them, I see a lot of potential.

Just need some ACTUAL results.

Example, the TFW just dynoed a lightly modded car that switched from 100 octane to E85 while on the dyno. No changes, but 50 more HP at 471RWHP. Stock unopened motor, single Walbro, 6265, 80# injectors, THDP, cold air kit, 30psi.


What is the stock compression ratio in a Hot Air block? Is an original Hot Air intake designed, tested, and implemented because GM engineers tested it to match? Is changing a hot air intake hurting it? Is Tom's hogged out design just making a slush bowl effect and hurting flow? I think it is. But I have no way to directly test between the two.

Finally, I'll post more later

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[SloGN]

Finally, I'll post more later

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I'll be interested on hearing how your setup came out. That intake is a totally diffrent than Tom's or my intake that I have done .

It would be very interesting to hear nicks input on this subject since he built up your ta engine

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[Boost231]

I just sent Jd a message to call me as it's easier to talk about this over the phone. Nick really won't have any input as for data on the intake he did for me. The flow numbers were posted and they were on par with the champion intake but baffels were put in it to help equal the flow and help fight turbulence issues we figured would happen of we didn't. From the data I have collected, it doesn't matter if the intake flows perfect, there are things going on in that intake when the engine is running the throws the numbers off causing lean and rich cylinders. At what point will you see it who knows, I have talked to two people now and it seems they are finally seeing this issue.

I would love to test a champion intake and log data but I don't have the intake and i don't have the time

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[SloGN]

I just sent Jd a message to call me as it's easier to talk about this over the phone. Nick really won't have any input as for data on the intake he did for me. The flow numbers were posted and they were on par with the champion intake but baffels were put in it to help equal the flow and help fight turbulence issues we figured would happen of we didn't. From the data I have collected, it doesn't matter if the intake flows perfect, there are things going on in that intake when the engine is running the throws the numbers off causing lean and rich cylinders. At what point will you see it who knows, I have talked to two people now and it seems they are finally seeing this issue.

I would love to test a champion intake and log data but I don't have the intake and i don't have the time

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Hey no need to keep the results to yourself no need to be secretive and hiding all results

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[jdpolzin]

Any ideas as far as the camshaft and trying to keep cylinder temps down? I know on most turbo applications, the cam doesn't make a huge amount of difference until you start wanting the motor to make some higher RPM's. BUT, will a cam in a hot air car make a difference? I'd be interested to see if EGT's can be brought down with a different selection of a cam.

 

[Boost231]

Damn, just typed a long ass post and the app crashed.

Anyways, I'm not. I just don't have the time to type it all out. Everyone is more then welcome to call me and we can talk about my setup, your setup, and data. People on this board have been calling me for years asking for help advice etc. I would rather talk on the phone as its easier for me and words can't get twisted like they can on the forum. You guys are more the. Welcome to call at anytime like some do already. I will usually answer, if I can't I will call you back.



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[Boost231]

Any ideas as far as the camshaft and trying to keep cylinder temps down? I know on most turbo applications, the cam doesn't make a huge amount of difference until you start wanting the motor to make some higher RPM's. BUT, will a cam in a hot air car make a difference? I'd be interested to see if EGT's can be brought down with a different selection of a cam.

That would be cool to test. Would love to have a stock hot air to test things like this. Problem is who's got the time to do that

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[Boost231]

I've never hidden data, some just don't belive me at times which is fine and I respect that. My word isn't gold and shouldn't be taken that way. I'm a believer in collecting info from several people and coming up with your own conclusion. When I have time I post data, look at that intake air temp post. Anyways I got to go. Ttyl

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[SloGN]

Any ideas as far as the camshaft and trying to keep cylinder temps down? I know on most turbo applications, the cam doesn't make a huge amount of difference until you start wanting the motor to make some higher RPM's. BUT, will a cam in a hot air car make a difference? I'd be interested to see if EGT's can be brought down with a different selection of a cam.

I really doubt that a cam shaft is really gonna make a difference in this case. All it's gonna do it move the power band up or down.

The bad thing about EGT's is there are other factors at play when looking at those. Egt's can go up with the same AFR just by changing the timing around. Also to see this one is gonna need 6 of them for every hole. So yes cam timing can make a difference there too. But to make power you want to have the highest amount of cylinder temps as you can get away with without having knock or melting things. Hence its that heat and pressure that pushes the piston down the bore. The reason for keeping the intake charge cooler is for one it has more oxygen in it and two it helps absorb some heat left over from the last firing event to keep the next in coming fuel charge from lighting off before the plug fires. so in a hot air engine this effect seems to so not happen in WOT.

HTH

pat broughton

 

[SloGN]

hey maybe we need a hot-air conference call..............

 

[turbonut85]

hey maybe we need a hot-air conference call..............

Count me in....I will freely post my #....
For the record....I have had long, drawn out conversations with Brent...among others on this very topic. Jdpolzin and I have had five times as many conversations ....(although 45% of those were drunken conversations) but you get the idea.....

THIS ^^^ is what this forum is about (IMHO) chatting, and sharing ideas throughout the spectrum about a common goal....making a hot air fast....

 

[charlief1]

No draw through's in my garage Charlie. Just the Stage, Monte, and truck and hopefully it will stay that way. So, you've been talking about quite a few mods that you've been testing, is your car running now? I've been curious to see some test results from one set up to another. How are you testing these different set ups?

Well the turbo is on 2 cars that I know of (mat231 and Canadian nascar) so far. Matt's using the original TTA turbo just like I posted about and did an 11:60 so far, and Canadian Nascar's running the TE-62DT right now. Since we're not computer controlled like the 84 up cars we can't "data log" like you guys can. We have to do it old school by reading plugs and knowing how an engine actually works.

The brake upgrade for the blazer knuckles are on good2win22" car right now being tested and there have been a few hick ups. The most aggravating one was the new G body stainless hoses had a pinhole in one. That's fixed and he's been driving around with them for about 1 week so far and things look good. He's also got the suspension recipe on his car and it rides firm but very smooth.

As far as my car goes, money and time are the biggest issues I've got. Got an 8.5 rear that I've got to rebuild and convert to rear discs, but haven't had the time to do the conversion so far. 40+ goats on the farm as well as rental properties, plus work, take most of my "free" time up. It's harvest season and most of the farmers around here break their equipment and call me to come out for repairs. Still working on it but it's a lot slower than I'd like. Been trying to get the frame back in the shop so I can position the engine and make a new tranny cross member for it as well as set up the the suspension the way I want' This isn't a quick process if you've ever built a car like this, and I know you've built cars before. Some just take longer than you want or like, but it's the nature of the beast so to speak. I'd rather pay my bills, have a roof over my head, and eat on a regular basis than have my car running at the moment.

 

[esinger]

As Pat touched upon in a previous post, intake air temps are one of the primary things I look at in my logs now. There's a wall that I hit when the IAT reaches around 218 degrees or higher. The engine starts knocking and adding more boost just makes the temps even worse. The last time I was at the track, I was playing around with a feature in the FAST XFI where I can reduce the spark advance based on intake air temps. In CCOM it's under View->Spark Functions->Spark Offset vs. ATS and as intake air temps get higher, I been pulling timing. There's also a section under View->Temperature Correction Tables->ATS Correction that I have thought about playing with too. The thought is to add more fuel as temps go up.

 

[boostmaster]

Flow numbers are a good source of data and the numbers don't lie. More in most cases means more power or potential for power. But flow numbers and distribution are two totally different variables. Although I myself don't have any specific data to back up my assumptions, I am one staunch believer that the engineers with there millions of dollars in testing got it right with the theory of the zip tubes on the hot air intake. I'm sure that they encountered the same heat soaking issue that many of you speak about. That's the whole reason for the zip tubes. 1) the long runners help to create good bottom end torque 2) with those long runners and the spraying of alcohol would give adequate time traveling along the zip tubes to properly atomize and dissipate the heat. The only question that remains is where they would have placed the nozzles had they followed through with production. I myself hadn't been to the track in a couple of years but I plan on going in the next month or so and do some testing myself. When I do I will post the results on my theories and my failures.

 

[Boost231]

I use the spark offset vs ATS on my car. I think I have it pulling a max of 2deg when ATS hits 255.

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[Boost231]

I know from my testing, when I turn the boost up my cylinder correction for each cylinder goes down and the group requires less correction + or - to get the egts to stay close.

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[hotairgnx548]

Flow numbers are a good source of data and the numbers don't lie. More in most cases means more power or potential for power. But flow numbers and distribution are two totally different variables. Although I myself don't have any specific data to back up my assumptions, I am one staunch believer that the engineers with there millions of dollars in testing got it right with the theory of the zip tubes on the hot air intake. I'm sure that they encountered the same heat soaking issue that many of you speak about. That's the whole reason for the zip tubes. 1) the long runners help to create good bottom end torque 2) with those long runners and the spraying of alcohol would give adequate time traveling along the zip tubes to properly atomize and dissipate the heat. The only question that remains is where they would have placed the nozzles had they followed through with production. I myself hadn't been to the track in a couple of years but I plan on going in the next month or so and do some testing myself. When I do I will post the results on my theories and my failures.

Boostmaster. Before I had my intake milled out and flowed I had an aqua mist nozzel ( each side) on the flat on the intake the sides of the turbo and a nozzel in the throat of the turbo a 1/4 mile run used about 16 oz of alchol but could not get the plenum temps below 220 degrees. The aqua mist came on about 14lbs boost and the other nozzel (AEM med size) came on 20 lb boost. Good luck keep us informed how it does. John

 

[SloGN]

Boostmaster. Before I had my intake milled out and flowed I had an aqua mist nozzel ( each side) on the flat on the intake the sides of the turbo and a nozzel in the throat of the turbo a 1/4 mile run used about 16 oz of alchol but could not get the plenum temps below 220 degrees. The aqua mist came on about 14lbs boost and the other nozzel (AEM med size) came on 20 lb boost. Good luck keep us informed how it does. John

Thanks for that info......

I don't think the air path inside.of the intake stock or not is gonna help with temp reduction with alky spray....

The problem is the fact of the matter is the turbo and pipe sit on top of the intake and the heat that radiates from them keeps the intake at a much higher starting temp vs the 86 style.

I really wish I had a way to measure cylinder temp before combustion to really see the effects of e85 of cooling...

Would also be neat to see how long it takes say a 120lb injector with 10ms worth of fuel spray to evaporate and how much heat is really removed when this takes place.

Just more thinking......

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[SloGN]

I know from my testing, when I turn the boost up my cylinder correction for each cylinder goes down and the group requires less correction + or - to get the egts to stay close.

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Well that intake must work better than the other intake that was on your old motor since you sold it to mark stadt...

The I win engineering one......

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[hotairgnx548]

Thanks for that info......

I don't think the air path inside.of the intake stock or not is gonna help with temp reduction with alky spray....

The problem is the fact of the matter is the turbo and pipe sit on top of the intake and the heat that radiates from them keeps the intake at a much higher starting temp vs the 86 style.

I really wish I had a way to measure cylinder temp before combustion to really see the effects of e85 of cooling...

Would also be neat to see how long it takes say a 120lb injector with 10ms worth of fuel spray to evaporate and how much heat is really removed when this takes place.

Just more thinking......

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Pat I was just letting Boostmaster know the placement I had tried before trying to get the air temps down. I had my iat sensor in the front of the intake near the radiator thermostat Housing. John