Good street manners camshaft replacement

[FullThrottle87]

What is a good streetable camshaft upgrade that works with vacuum brakes, factory heads, road driven car with a small turbo?

I'm playing with my original hardware 66,666 mile '87 GN and enjoyed it over the Summer/Fall. She's running great, but its time for some clean upgrades all around. Its a street car that will see a trip or two per year at the track. My goals are a street friendly setup that has a descent idle but more air/fuel getting through the motor than my old worn out factory flat tappet. I'm going to pickup a set of factory heads and do a moderate port & polish job, hand the heads off to the machine shop for new guides/seats/springs/milling.

I don't have a stall converter (factory D5) maybe its time to consider an upgrade while I'm messing with the top end?

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Comp 206/206 roller.

 

[FullThrottle87]

Comp 206/206 roller.

Is the upgrade to a 206/206 a worthwhile cause or am I pissing money into the wind?
I see everyone running these big ol' camshafts, but our goals are much, MUCH different!
What type of turbo would pair up nicely with the 206/206? Any other recommended upgrades? (Timing chain replacement of course) Do 60LBS. injectors work well with this camshaft?
What kind of performance numbers could I expect out of this setup? Thanks!

 

[Nick Micale]

What is a good streetable camshaft upgrade that works with vacuum brakes, factory heads, road driven car with a small turbo?......

With just a cam upgrade, you will see no performance improvement, many stock cams have been well into the 10's.

If you add $3-4000 upgrades along with a cam upgrade, that will make it easier [less boost, more RPM] getting into the 10's.

You have now entered the turbo "Twilight Zone" where we make HP with boost and RPM, and do not need BIG duration cams like the non-boosted cars, we control the incoming air and fuel!

 

[Phoneguy]

I would not call my 224 roller big but I personally think that it is too big for my combo. It has great street manners but I don't think I spin my motor high enough for this cam. As Nick said , we don't need a lot of cam ....

Bryan

 

[forcefed3.8's]

60lbs injectors will support plenty of power. Stock cams have been fast, i know of a car that has been 10.3s on a stocker, breaking up at the top end from vakve float, but limit rpm and a cam upgrade will make more power at the same boost levels especially with some head work. It all depends on your goals, race gas or alky will allow more boost. A good converter is a good idea too. There needs to be a goal to make a combo.

 

[Boost231]

How did you determine your stock cam is worn out?

 

[FullThrottle87]

I'm not sure that the stock cam is worn out, I was just hoping to get some more air & fuel into the motor. I was going to start with just stiffer valvesprings since I read alot about the stockers being weak. Well, if I'm doing that, might as well clean up a pair of heads and freshen them up. Damn, if I have the heads off and I'm redoing gaskets, maybe I ought to do the timing chain. Once I look at the timing chain how much more is it to do a cam swap, a few minutes? LOL I just know everything needs cleaning and lots of my hard earned money!

 

[FullThrottle87]

I guess my goal is to have as stout of a setup as I can reliably and comfortably drive on the street, without shaking my fillings out or twisting the car apart!
I like to drive, not process quarter mile slips, so I'm leaning towards a conservative build. 11's would be nice and to crack a 10.xx would be nice if thats realistic with keeping it street friendly.

 

[Nick Micale]

I guess my goal is to have as stout of a setup as I can reliably and comfortably drive on the street, without shaking my fillings out or twisting the car apart!
I like to drive, not process quarter mile slips, so I'm leaning towards a conservative build. 11's would be nice and to crack a 10.xx would be nice if thats realistic with keeping it street friendly.

This is somewhat off-topic, but I would like it to be helpful since you are new to the turbo Buick world.

My first suggestion is to not jump into any mods to your GN until you gather more info and become more familiar with different performance recipes to match your goals and budget.

I have built many mid-11 sec. and mid-10 sec. turbo cars, and to do it properly it will take at least $10K and $20K for each those builds with nice street manners.

Performance is not just HP, but to do it with reliability and have nice street manners, the combination of parts needs to be properly matched, and other areas like trans, suspension, fuel system, cooling and other stuff needs to be included in the package.

We have learned from our many mistakes over the years, so take advantage of the knowledge here to make sure your final product will give you the satisfaction your are seeking w/o wasting a lot of your time and funds.

 

[FullThrottle87]

I've been reading and reading and reading for years, at some point I've got to put a wrench on the car! I agree that everything needs to be matched with each other. I don't know, I suppose it feels weird having to ask permission from the Buick community before I can do some work on my car... I really just want to drive the car and enjoy working on it, I'm not worried about cutting off a tenth of a second on a time slip for having the most efficient turbo Buick on earth! I keep reading almost every part has gone tens on a factory grand national, somewhere along the way they change something to make that happen! I need a local Jedi Master...

 

[FullThrottle87]

I guess one problem is that it is the strange vortex world of turbo v6. I've been a mechanic my whole life and involved with upgrading a grand national when I was a kid. You can't go down to the parts store and pick up performance turbo Buick parts. A lot of these guys on the board have lots of money to by and swap parts on a whim. I'm asking for advice so I can save some of that money and by some of it once. I don't mind trials and errors figuring out the process on my own. You guys talk to new people and old people like they're all a bunch of idiots and they just need to come to your guyses performance shops and turn over their credit card information! I'm asking for help but a lot of what you get on the Buick forums is mystery answers... even when I'm trying to support the vendors and the community by making purchases I am told not to make those purchases because those are not the parts I am looking for. Very confusing! I've been reading for years, again at some point I've got to order some stuff and start working on the car...

 

[TurboTnZ06]

What's your budget, and how fast do you want to go? If I still had my stock GN, it'd get alky, 60# injectors, fuel pump, XFI (to run without maf etc), converter, turbo, bigger intercooler, alum driveshaft, 1350 yokes, moser axles, arp wheel studs, full trans rebuild (spend at least $2k on that) leaving heads and cam alone. If I did pull the heads, then bowl port only, leave stock cam in there.

 

[FullThrottle87]

I do appreciate the answers, I'm probably asking the wrong questions and going about it all ass backwards!

 

[horndog]

cam is one of the last items to upgrade in a boosted application in your scenario. Its bit different than a naturally aspirated engine and you cannot think completely the same way.

 

[FullThrottle87]

What's your budget, and how fast do you want to go? If I still had my stock GN, it'd get alky, 60# injectors, fuel pump, XFI (to run without maf etc), converter, turbo, bigger intercooler, alum driveshaft, 1350 yokes, moser axles, arp wheel studs, full trans rebuild (spend at least $2k on that) leaving heads and cam alone. If I did pull the heads, then bowl port only, leave stock cam in there.

I haven't formulated a budget, no wife and no kids. I'm not a rich man, I would like to do tasteful upgrades without hacking/molesting the car apart. I do not have a quarter mile time goal, I'm more concerned with how well I do on the street the 100 times I drive it this year. I have read over and over that the sixties injectors work well for a streetcar. Since my very first upgrades are to the fuel system and the fuel injectors, with a new downpipe to reduce exhaust restrictions that's what I've got to start with.

 

[FullThrottle87]

I know, it's the turbo twilight zone of power... I understand it's a different mindset and method of getting that old detroit iron to go faster and faster! I've spent a short life time building old street rods and muscle cars, this is an entirely different experience altogether! I have a lot to learn!!

 

[horndog]

Its fun as long as you are patient. My car went from 12s capable to low 10s capable in the matter of 3 years. Granted, it took over $10k to get there and a lot of..."while the engine is out I should do this..."

 

[FullThrottle87]

Its fun as long as you are patient. My car went from 12s capable to low 10s capable in the matter of 3 years. Granted, it took over $10k to get there and a lot of..."while the engine is out I should do this..."

That's where I'm at, while I have it apart what other goodies will increase the quality of my car. I worked in a machine shop for almost 10 years, it is almost an instinct to want to play with the heads just to play with the heads! There is always power to be unlocked there... I turn wrenches for a living and working on the Buick makes fuel-injected motors enjoyable! I have been picking up factory turbo 6 parts in order to have one I can modify and not feel bad about.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

Thinking about it some more, get a new/rebuilt cam sensor from GNS performance. Those have a wear bushing in them, need to get replaced. Also, timing chain, the stock one is plastic. Then may as well pull heads and port/springs etc. Then drop oil pan, fix oil leaks because it'll be way easier to get timing cover on with oil pan off. I'd still leave stock cam, but if want to, 210/210 is really as big as you'd need to go. I'm planning on mid 9's with my 210/210 on 110 lsa.