General Speed-Pro help....

T

Toma

Guest
We just got a Speed Pro Bank to Bank system with wide band option for our [gulp]421 cu in, xx-trim Mondo Vortech Mustang[/gulp].

We are having some difficulties...

First off it has 77# injectors.

We cannot edit any files unless the Lap Top is connected to the Speed Pro unit.

The VE values in the MAP/RPM table are in the 120's just to idle!!

What should the MAP AE limit be set to, and does this affect the VE values. We have a 2 bar map sensor at the moment.

The AF ratio really fluctuates (from 13.XX to 15.xx) at idle in either open or closed loop. The O2 sensor is only in 1 header tube....should we move it to a collector??

Even though we only bought the unit 2 weeks ago, it came with DOS software....how do we get the Windows software??

Any questions you guys can answer, or problems you can address are much apprecaited...

Thanks,
Toma
 
To be able to edit files while the laptop is not connected, you will have to hook up the computer, go online, after you notice the two green lights in the upper corner of the screen, go to file, I think it says save tables, hit save, give it a name you will recognize, I called mine base file. hit save and it will be in your computer. When you go off line, you can go to file, view tables from file and pick that base file. when you hit enter, the tables and all screens should be the same as when you are online.
Anytime i make changes, I give it a new name so if I make a big mistake I will always have that base to go back to.

I can't help with the VE tables as I am normally aspirated and my tables will be completely different than yours.

The O2 sensor does need to be in the collector. You are only getting a reading from one cylinder if you are in the header tube.
I was told to put mine within 5 inches of where all the tubes meet the collector.
Again, this is normally aspirated. The turbo guys may have different input as this location.

Good luck.
 
What pressure are the injectors rated at? Is your base fuel pressure the same? Are those 77's the JMS modified Ford 36's? I've "heard" of problems with them. Just a guess. My a/f jumps a lil at idle too, but it idles good enough for me. My guess is there is some sort of fuel delivery problem if you have to run VE #'s that high?
 
A few things for you to check:

First off, do whatever you need to do to verify that these injectors really flow 77 lbs/hr. If you aren't yet CERTAIN of the injector flow rate, you should consider having them flowed. If you are already certain of the flow rate, then you're OK here.

Second, there is a field in the fuel calculation parameters section where you enter your injector flow rate. Make sure that you have 77 entered in this field.

Set your static fuel pressure to 45 psi. Just turn the pump on, leave the car off, and tweak the regulator until pressure is at 45. Also make sure there is a boost reference to the regulator or your motor will die when you get into boost. Death is bad.

As mentioned above, put your O2 sensor in a collector. If you are running open or very free flowing exhaust, you may not get a good reading from the O2 until you spin the motor up a little bit, but it's still the best way to do it.

I would NOT recommend idling in closed loop. Even a little, teeny-tiny change in injector pulsewidth at an idle makes a big difference in idle characteristics, and this becomes even more of a factor as injector size increases. If the O2 sensor tries to correct a slightly lean idle, it will try to add a little bit of fuel, which with monster injectors, almost always turns out to be too much. Then it tries to remove a little bit, but it winds up removing too much. It becomes a vicious circle and the idle quality tends to be horrible. If you don't have an IAC motor, they really do help the idle out a lot. Might be worth thinking about. Also, there is a screen in the idle speed section called Timing Trim. This advances or retards ignition timing at an idle as a function of RPM error at an idle. As the idle RPM fluctuates from the target idle speed set in the idle speed screen, it will alter ignition timing to help speed up or slow down the motor. This can also help smooth things out.

I would set the AE MAP limit to about 120. This way, as you accelerate and get into boost, it prevents acceleration enrichment fuel from being applied as the boost rises. The extra fueling needed under boost is automatically figured into the speed/density calculation, and the boost reference signal to the pressure regulator also increases fuel pressure with boost. Acceleration enrichment fuel is only needed to achieve throttle response.

Where did you buy your system? It sounds like maybe you got a system that someone had in stock and that system was shipped before C-Com WP was released. If this is the case, call your dealer back and tell them that you are entitled to a copy of C-Com WP. Have your dealer call me with any questions.

Hope this gets you somewhere... sounds like quite a car. Have fun!

Craig
 
Craig....FAST World Headquarters??? Cool, just the man I need.... Thanks for the help. Let me first fill you in on a few things....

We are in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and the system was purchased from Burnaby Auto in Surrey BC. They ordered it from a "warehouse" (thats how most Canadian Speed Shops work....not many of them have enough volume to buy direct). We were supposed to get a 3 bar map sensor. The one we got must be a 1 bar because only at 1 bar set in the fuel calc parameters does it display close to the proper density (about 90kPa since we are at 4000 feet). We installed a 2 bar GM sensor I had laying around from my Crane Interceptor days.... The Idle Air adapter is coming tomorrow (we hope).

The injectors are 77#ers, and were modified 36#ers by a JMS dealer in town, and he flowed them as well. They had a good pattern, and flowed right on the money. FP is at 45, referenced to the manifold, and a little lower at idle, and comes up under boost. We idle at about 900 to 1000rpm, and have about 14" of vacuum.

No matter what we do, we need values in the 120 to 130's in the VE table to idle the thing at a decent AF ratio...... I dunno WTF.... The problem with the MAP we have is we had to pull the inner plastic insert to fit the Fel pro plug..... (it is a GM map sensor....the one Fel Pro sent just says 'made in Hong Kong, and must be a 1 bar since it only outputs numbers in the 100kPa range when the program is set to 1 bar... (otherwise, it reads much too high).

Made a couple WOT runs with Shane Hill's program slightly modded for our car (cubic inch, injector size and map, along with modified VE numbers) anyway, with 150 (which is the max) pretty well across the board on the VE table, at WOT past about 3500 rpm, it is at about 11.8:1 in open loop. In closed loop, the computer corrects, and we are at about 12.6 to 12.8:1 (12.5:1 in the target AF table). I think the computer was reporting 26 degrees of timing during most the runs, which is probably actually 22 degrees at the crank when checked with a light since at idle etc, we alwasy have about 4 less then the computer screen shows , so it is a very conservative tune since we are only hitting 11psi at 6200, and the motor is a 421 with 8.5:1 compression. Once you go WOT it is lean for a bit, then spikes to rich, and then leans out then spikes to rich again (this all takes about 2 seconds), and then leans a hair to the stabilized numbers.....seems to do this in closed or open loop, although we only have 6 wot runs on the car...

Still find the VE number thing weird......

Craig, do you have a number where I can reach your tech support department??

Also, a real annoying thing is the data logging table always reverts back to the #11 dashboard between data logs....

I really appreciate the help,

Thanks,
Toma
 
77# inj, etc

Toma, FWIW, I have had 1 set of the so called 77PPH inj's that were originally 36PPH bluetops on my test bench and they were JUNK!! They were thrown away.
They were in an application similar to yours, [FOMOCO] only turbo'd.
The engine would not idle well due to a TOTALLY messed up spray pattern, [like a firehose] and the fuel consumption was outrageous.:mad:

I have also been involved w/ a mondo setup on a 377" Tang.
we found the following:
1. 77# inj are not near enough for that much air/engine.We had 83's then 96's then 160's. BTW, the 77's on the other engine were changed to 160's too.;) FWIW, I run 72's in my 231" Buick v-6 and don't use NEAR the air the mondo will move!!]
2. Due to poor air distribution from the side mtd T/B, we had to go to individual cyl tuning to keep the A/F ratios on the driver bank where they should be. [Kept blowing the head gasket]

I'd ditch the 2 bar map.


HTH,
Back under my rock,
:cool:
 
Update....got a new 2 bar map sensor from a local parts store from a GN application, and installed it. Also, lowered AE Map Limit to 120 as Craig suggested. Also, changed the Idle paramaters to 1000rpm across the board (our IAC solenoid did not make it yet).

For some reason, we were able to lower the VE values to 85 at idle.... Much nicer day today....was about 92kPa over 89 last night :D Man I love this thing....

We will try some WOT later tonight when the roads clear up ;)
 
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