Gen II MAF Translator w/E85 - with TurboTweak Chip

[Terbro]

I just got my car back after a bit of a delay with the transmission from Nick Micale. We had a bit of a mix-up with the original tranny, but I just got the new trans back in a couple days ago and it's awesome. So I'm finally now able to focus on dialing 'er in. But...a bit of a situation: Nick Micale and his folks built and installed the motor in Phoenix, and per my request, connected the Gen II MAF Translator that originally came with the TR when I bought it. I think they had to completely start over, as the wiring was in bad shape upon purchase.

So I've got the Gen II in there, and I just learned that I've got the TurboTweak (programmable) chip.

I've eyeballed this briefly: http://www.fullthrottletech.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=303&d=1151 but my while I'm good at some stuff, my brain got a smidge garbled when reading the section on adjusting the AFR. and timing.

Obviously see my sig for mods, and also note that I'm currently at about 20 psi (but might go another psi or two if I can get away with it with the 60 lb injectors and stock fuel rails). Also note that I'm at about 6K elevation here in Colorado and (embarrassed)...don't know my fuel pressure. Okay...I need to get an FP gauge.

One thing I'm noticing is excellent power in first (and 20 psi), but in 2nd and 3rd, sometimes feel a drop in power, some hesitation and boost (only getting to about 17 psi). So I might be running out of fuel...or just in need of dialing it in? I only have a Scanmaster, and am seeing WOT O2 readings of high 700's - mid 800's. My last run this afternoon, I think I had an O2 reading of 781 and the highest KR I've seen yet, at 7.7 (previous was 2.8). I took Nick's advice and turned up (turned clockwise) the FPR to increase the fuel pressure to see if that would help. I'll go for another run and check to see if I see high KR again...seems a bit high; a little too high to consider it to be caused by the shift.

 

[Terbro]

Played with the fuel pressure. Turned the FP regular clockwise, assuming that's upping the pressure, and went for three runs, 1/3 turn at a time on the FPR. Counter-productive...power was still great in 1st and boosting to the full 20 psi, but by the time I was in 3rd, power was way down, boosting to only about 14 psi, and topped out at ~4K rpms, I'm guessing.

So then I decided to go the other way...turned the FP adjustment back to where I thought I started, and then went down another 1/3 turn. That didn't change anything (O2 mv's 804), so I turned it down another 1/3 turn, and it went flat again, only now O2 mv's were only 730. So...too low - went back to my starting point. Now I don't know what to do. Nick says that DW hot wired pump is more than sufficient...said he had a car do a 9.9 with one. Mine's fast, but not that fast. So it's not the pump, probably not the FP. Injectors? Fuel rail? If one has a big pump, would the stock fuel rail still be an issue with E85? The chip maybe? I'm wondering if I need more timing because my boost is so high. An event I just now remembered:

Probably about 12 years ago, I had a GN...took it to the track. Drained the pump gas, put in race gas and start jacking up the boost via the wastegate actuator rod...looking forward to racing. I go for run, and it's not making much boost. So I turn up the boost some more. Another run...still not making boost. I *repeat this several times* and remembered I forgot to swap in my race chip! So I slap the race chip in...and go for a run. HFS! My mostly stock GN pegs past 30 psi on the gauge and (with slicks, hooking perfectly) launches me like I have never before!!! I'm convinced I had ~600 hp for about 2 seconds...until I saw the boost gauge and let off. Okay, so...lesson learned there - I jacked up the boost way too high in frustration when I had the street chip in and forgot to jack it down again. But my point is that the...what - timing in the chip made all the difference?

So I have to talk to Nick, but I wonder if I've got an E85 street chip that isn't designed for as much boost as I'm running. Hmmm....

 

[Terbro]

Welp...just pulled the TurboTweak instructions I put in the glove box when I first got the car back from Nick. She's a programmable chip, so that's great - looks like I can program it with the Gen II Translator. Now I just have to learn hot to do it! I'm calling TurboTweak in the morning. Oh man...I just realized tomorrow's Sunday. Sigh...

Okay, one thing that's odd is - in the TT chip instructions, it says "For a Gen II Translator, set the MAF Output to "GN Stock MAF". Eh...I've got an LT1 MAF. And I think Nick had set it to 3.5" LT1 MAF. I'll change it and see if that does anything. Personally, I doubt it will. But please anyone with experience can chime in anytime. Or else I'll just keep replying to my own thread!

 

[TurboBuRick]

The gen2 cannot make changes to the chip parameters. Thats done by using the gas pedal procedure or powerlogger.

To best utilize the gen 2 you need a extreme G chip.

Set maf "output"to stock chip for a tt chip.

Set maf "input" to the style maf you are using.

 

[Eric Stage I]

See attached document on how to set up the Gen II for your TurboTweak chip.

To adjust WOT fueling, use the adjustable parameters in the chip. See your TT chip instructions.

Spark adjustments will also be done through the chip parameters.

Eric

 

[Terbro]

Eric - Just tried calling you actually. I noticed the phone number I found via a search isn't on your website, with no option to leave a voicemail when I called. I just pulled the chip and learned that it does look like the right chip for my set up.

I briefly looked at the Gen II the other day (haven't never used it, so I'm fully notice at it), but one thing I thought I saw was that the MAF Output was set to 3.5" LT1. I'll go out now and get into it, but would that affect the performance if so?

Considering it looks like I've got the right chip in it, and the power/performance drop is so significant in 2nd and 3rd, I'm wondering what the heck is going on. Maybe it's that I'm at just under 6K elevation?

I appreciate you chiming in, and while I'm relatively bright, I do get intimidated by instructions sometimes. I'm far better at hands-on instruction. So...looking at both the written instructions for the TT chip and the Quick Start Guide you and the other gentleman posted have me thinking I'll just have to do it....'cause reading them while not at the car is just confusing.

 

[Terbro]

I take it back...major piece o' cake - programming the TT chip via the pedal process (PP).

But I'm miffed at how to get to the Gen II's parameter of the MAF Output. When I turn it on, it displays the MAF Input, which is set properly to the 3.5" LT1. I'd like to confirm that the MAF Output is set to GN Stock MAF. I've been through it, Pressing and holding the Page button with the up and down arrows and see those different sections...but can't find where the MAF Output is. It's probably fine...but would like to confirm.

Did some tuning:

Added 0.7 deg. timing (parameters 3&4; BLM 130) went for a run and didn't notice a change, no significant KR (~2). Decided to add more:
Added 1.4 deg. timing (parameters 3&4; BLM 132) went for a run and it ran flatter, noticed that O2 mv's were lower; 765 (2.8 KR). Decided to add more fuel:
Added 7% fuel (parameter 1; BLM 137) went for a run, thought maybe it went flat later in the run, O2 mv = 789, 0.0 KR.
Added 11.4% fuel (parameter 1; BLM 143) & added more timing; 2.1 deg (P3&4; BLM 134) ran crappy...totally flat by the time I was in 3rd, only 16 psi (remember 20 psi in 1st).

I'm willing to bet I need bigger injectors...it just feels like it's not getting enough fuel.

 

[turbo89]

I take it back...major piece o' cake - programming the TT chip via the pedal process (PP).

But I'm miffed at how to get to the Gen II's parameter of the MAF Output. When I turn it on, it displays the MAF Input, which is set properly to the 3.5" LT1. I'd like to confirm that the MAF Output is set to GN Stock MAF. I've been through it, Pressing and holding the Page button with the up and down arrows and see those different sections...but can't find where the MAF Output is. It's probably fine...but would like to confirm.

Did some tuning:

Added 0.7 deg. timing (parameters 3&4; BLM 130) went for a run and didn't notice a change, no significant KR (~2). Decided to add more:
Added 1.4 deg. timing (parameters 3&4; BLM 132) went for a run and it ran flatter, noticed that O2 mv's were lower; 765 (2.8 KR). Decided to add more fuel:
Added 7% fuel (parameter 1; BLM 137) went for a run, thought maybe it went flat later in the run, O2 mv = 789, 0.0 KR.
Added 11.4% fuel (parameter 1; BLM 143) & added more timing; 2.1 deg (P3&4; BLM 134) ran crappy...totally flat by the time I was in 3rd, only 16 psi (remember 20 psi in 1st).

I'm willing to bet I need bigger injectors...it just feels like it's not getting enough fuel.

No what you did isn't tuning ... it's guessing .

Tuning is when you can actually log what the car is doing and make appropriate changes where needed in order to get results.

you are right about one thing with the parts you have your short on injector if you decide to put boost to it .. but you have no idea of where your at as your just guessing ..

get some datalogging on the car so you can actually see what its doing and how its responding .. be a lot faster than GUESSING the right tune

 

[TurboBuRick]

Maf settings are in the configuration page. Hold page button and arrow up or down to the config page. Release the page button and use the arrow up and down to scroll through the options.

Ivan "turbo89" gives good advice. Without data you're shooting in the dark. These cars can't be tuned by seat of pants.

Time for a powerlogger. I would also consider switching to a regular translator to eliminate confusion. You're really not using any of the GenII features anyways. It's better utilized when paired with a extreme G chip. Then all the tuning can be done with the GenII. IE fuel and timing. Add a wideband and it will do WOT fuel correction as well. It's a great little device but way overkill if you don't have a G chip hence ditching the GenII for a regular translator.

Good luck man.

 

[DavzGN]

And if you are sending the wrong maf signal to the ecm, you shouldn't be driving it, especially since you can't monitor the data the ecm is seeing. Getting into boost with a bad maf signal could cause engine damage.

 

[Terbro]

Turbo89 - Tuning with a Powerlogger takes out a lot of the guesswork, and back and forth I've been trying, but I don't have the option. I've owned 6 TR's, and I've tuned them using the similar process I did the other day. I would love to have a Powerlogger, but funds are tight, so in the meantime, I have to try and test and tune with the Scanmaster and my senses. My point is - you are incorrect to say I "wasn't tuning". Millions of guys throughout history have successfully tuned their cars with nothing but trial and error test-and tune process. Okay - guessing? Yes - but testing afterward, checking O2 mv's and performance afterward is definitely tuning. Just gimmie a break...for the moment, I'm trying to tune with what I got!

Anyway, I'm convinced I've got another problem, which is why my tuning methods aren't working as they have in the past. A Powerlogger would be great to see what's going on with the injectors.

Anyway...I've got a few problems: A) Nick Micale says he thinks my 60# injectors are sufficient. B) I see conflicting opinions on the site, C) When I bought the car, the injector size was unknown. Nick and his tuner guy determined that they were 60# injectors, but they're human and I'm wondering if maybe they're not. To my knowledge, they're the tall skinny type...I don't think there's a number on them. I think they determined it by the data logging? I don't know.

 

[Terbro]

Maf settings are in the configuration page. Hold page button and arrow up or down to the config page. Release the page button and use the arrow up and down to scroll through the options.

Ivan "turbo89" gives good advice. Without data you're shooting in the dark. These cars can't be tuned by seat of pants.

Time for a powerlogger. I would also consider switching to a regular translator to eliminate confusion. You're really not using any of the GenII features anyways. It's better utilized when paired with a extreme G chip. Then all the tuning can be done with the GenII. IE fuel and timing. Add a wideband and it will do WOT fuel correction as well. It's a great little device but way overkill if you don't have a G chip hence ditching the GenII for a regular translator.

Good luck man.

Thanks for the tip on the Gen II. I'm willing to bet the Gen II set up right...just wanted to confirm. It runs *phenomenally* under all conditions except those I mentioned (WOT in 2nd +) As an example, I changed the MAF Input to 3" LT1 while the car was running yesterday, and it immediately affected the smoothness. Of the 6 TR's I've owned, this one runs about as smooth as any I've owned.

And agreed - got to get a Powerlogger. Just a budget issue at the moment.

No need to switch to a regular Translator. It's not confusing me in the slightest (just didn't know where the MAF Output section was...again, thanks for the heads up there). The Gen II is doing its job perfectly...so for the moment, until I decide to get an Extreme G (or Extender Pro?) chip, I'll just leave it to do its basic job of translating the MAF signal.

 

[turbo89]

Turbo89 - Tuning with a Powerlogger takes out a lot of the guesswork, and back and forth I've been trying, but I don't have the option. I've owned 6 TR's, and I've tuned them using the similar process I did the other day. I would love to have a Powerlogger, but funds are tight, so in the meantime, I have to try and test and tune with the Scanmaster and my senses. My point is - you are incorrect to say I "wasn't tuning". Millions of guys throughout history have successfully tuned their cars with nothing but trial and error test-and tune process. Okay - guessing? Yes - but testing afterward, checking O2 mv's and performance afterward is definitely tuning. Just gimmie a break...for the moment, I'm trying to tune with what I got!

Anyway, I'm convinced I've got another problem, which is why my tuning methods aren't working as they have in the past. A Powerlogger would be great to see what's going on with the injectors.

Anyway...I've got a few problems: A) Nick Micale says he thinks my 60# injectors are sufficient. B) I see conflicting opinions on the site, C) When I bought the car, the injector size was unknown. Nick and his tuner guy determined that they were 60# injectors, but they're human and I'm wondering if maybe they're not. To my knowledge, they're the tall skinny type...I don't think there's a number on them. I think they determined it by the data logging? I don't know.

I'm trying to help.. Tuning these cars using a single wire O2 and SM is asking for it with the setup you have.. And again with the parts you have if you put some boost behind it no way are 60's enough .. You cant just turn fp up down all around and go seat of the pants .. Your gonna get bit if you try with E85... If your on a budget get a old TL setup with cable .. Or at minimum put a wideband on the car.. If you were closer i would lend u one just to get close.. Track time is extremely helpful when "tuning"

 

[Terbro]

Ding, ding! The key, figuratively and literally was the Range button. When I turn on the car, the Gen II is on the Config page...displaying the MAF Input. Using the up/down buttons changes the MAF type. Pressing the *Range* button got me to the MAF Output section and it is set to Stock GN MAF, as it should be, since I have a TT chip.

So...for a Powerlogger, I just need a cheap laptop and the software of course. Is Kirban the best place to by the PL? And it states that the computer needs Win98SE, 2000, XP, or Vista. Should I not buy a laptop with a later version OS? I've been thinking of buying a new basic laptop from Costco.

 

[turbo89]

Ding, ding! The key, figuratively and literally was the Range button. When I turn on the car, the Gen II is on the Config page...displaying the MAF Input. Using the up/down buttons changes the MAF type. Pressing the *Range* button got me to the MAF Output section and it is set to Stock GN MAF, as it should be, since I have a TT chip.

So...for a Powerlogger, I just need a cheap laptop and the software of course. Is Kirban the best place to by the PL? And it states that the computer needs Win98SE, 2000, XP, or Vista. Should I not buy a laptop with a later version OS? I've been thinking of buying a new basic laptop from Costco.

PL from a vendor of your choice.. I just saw one in the parts for sale section but with electronics i prefer to always buy new..
Laptop OS.. Try to stick with XP and keep the laptop use to tuning the car only...
Stay away from Windows 8

 

[Terbro]

I'm trying to help.. Tuning these cars using a single wire O2 and SM is asking for it with the setup you have.. And again with the parts you have if you put some boost behind it no way are 60's enough .. You cant just turn fp up down all around and go seat of the pants .. Your gonna get bit if you try with E85... If your on a budget get a old TL setup with cable .. Or at minimum put a wideband on the car.. If you were closer i would lend u one just to get close.. Track time is extremely helpful when "tuning"

I appreciate what you're saying. And I agree...I've got a lot of money in a brand new motor and should do it right. The challenge is the difference of opinion. Nick Micale is confident I'm fine with the 60# injectors. But I've read elsewhere on the board that 80#'ers are needed.

 

[Terbro]

Tell ya what...you guys (turbo89 & TurboBuRick) buy me A) a fresh set of 80#'ers. B) A fresh Extreme G chip good for my set up, and C) a Powerlogger, send 'em all my way, and I'll buy an old laptop for $100. Then I'll be sittin' pretty - should have no fuel probs, will have the right tuning diagnostic tool, and tunable chip system with the Gen II.

Don't make me buy it all myself!

 

[Eric Stage I]

Just FYI, you won't be able to add any more fuel using the adjustable parameters with that chip, as it was programmed for 100% injector duty cycle at WOT, since the injectors were small for the combo.

 

[Terbro]

Just FYI, you won't be able to add any more fuel using the adjustable parameters with that chip, as it was programmed for 100% injector duty cycle at WOT, since the injectors were small for the combo.

Oh really?!!! Is this something you remember specifically about my chip...or just any chip for such a set up. Thanks for chiming in. This is important info! What are your thoughts on my situation? Am I'm running out of fuel? In other words, do I need bigger injectors? I'm right at 20 psi in 1st (I see the chip says "20-23 psi boost") implying it could handle more. But I'm surely not bothering, based on my current problem. And what are you thoughts about the fact I'm at just under 6K feet elevation? How do you think that's affecting the fuel situation?

 

[turbo89]

I appreciate what you're saying. And I agree...I've got a lot of money in a brand new motor and should do it right. The challenge is the difference of opinion. Nick Micale is confident I'm fine with the 60# injectors. But I've read elsewhere on the board that 80#'ers are needed.

How would Nick know your fine if you have no datalogging on the car ... If you put the boost to it with what you have you could even push the 80's... Quit guessing