FAST SEFI cranking & firing issue (97 Cobra TT)...

Spud

New Member
Joined
May 16, 2005
I have a FAST SEFI with ICC in my 97 Cobra twin turbo, running with an OEM crank trigger (36-1 wheel and OEM inductive cam sensor) with a FORD EDIS-8 module and an MSD DIS-4.

Problem is when I recently got my ECU back from being upgraded by FAST my car wouldn't fire right away, but would just crank and crank without firing, and all the while I wouldn't see any injector activity on the dashboard either. I reversed the polarity on the cam sensor after checking over all the wiring a number of times, and it fired up right away and so I assumed that it was a polarity of the cam sensor issue. This however is contrary to what the Lance at FAST told me (he said that with the OEM cam sensor it shouldn't make a difference what polarity it's in as I wouldn't see it on the dashboard anyhow).

I went to fire it up today and it wouldn't fire but eventually did. I had to crank it a number of times and cycle the key at least 8-10 times, and then rechecked all the major connections and then did it some more and low and behold it finally came to life, but without my changing anything or noticing anything out of the ordinary. Idled and ran fine, and then I shut it off and started it again no problem. I left if for a while and came back to fire it up again and the same problem occurred (cranked it a number of times probably 8 separate cycles and it finally fired). The plugs, wires and ignition components are all brand new, and so I'm not even suspecting any of the major players. Fuel pressure, battery voltage at 14.4 and all other criticals all seem normal.

Seems odd that this is the first time I've ever encountered this problem, and so I'm wondering if it's symptomatic of it being set up as SEFI running a FORD EDIS-8 module and OEM crank and cam signal? Perhaps the FAST only likes reading those in a B2B environment? Is it possible that the ECU is random sequential because it doesn't recognize cylinder #1's signal and so #1 doesn't occur as the true #1 in sequence and so until the firing order gets close after cycling the key a number of times, it will finally fire..? Is anybody running a "waste spark" ignition system with an OEM crank and cam signal with an EDIS-8 module? Please chime in with any advice or thoughts... I'm going to go over every connection again and if the problem persists I'm going to have to send it on a trip down south again...

Thanks,

Spud
 
If eventually it runs,It is most likely a tuning issue or possible bad sensor
Double check your dash and make sure all the sensors read correct with the car not running
 
When I checked all the wiring last night, I did notice that one of the cam sensor wires detached from the connector. (I had the wires connected at the sensor with male/female connectors to allow switching polarity when troubleshooting the lack of a cam signal on the dash) and the wire fell out of the female connector on one end, so I've now soldered it up. In looking at the sensors with the dash on but car not running, as far as I can see the sensors all read normally. However, I've not ever been able to see the cam signal (big red zero), but Lance at FAST told me that I won't see the cam sensor with a Ford EDIS-8 hooked up to SEFI..? When cranking, I would not see any injector activity until it eventually ran and then I'd see it as normal. When it would crank and not fire until after excessive cranking, it seemed as though the injector drivers were shut off or not getting a valid signal..? I could see the RPM, TPS, WB O2, ECT, MAP etc. whether hot in run or while running. Any ideas?
 
When I checked all the wiring last night, I did notice that one of the cam sensor wires detached from the connector. (I had the wires connected at the sensor with male/female connectors to allow switching polarity when troubleshooting the lack of a cam signal on the dash) and the wire fell out of the female connector on one end, so I've now soldered it up. In looking at the sensors with the dash on but car not running, as far as I can see the sensors all read normally. However, I've not ever been able to see the cam signal (big red zero), but Lance at FAST told me that I won't see the cam sensor with a Ford EDIS-8 hooked up to SEFI..? When cranking, I would not see any injector activity until it eventually ran and then I'd see it as normal. When it would crank and not fire until after excessive cranking, it seemed as though the injector drivers were shut off or not getting a valid signal..? I could see the RPM, TPS, WB O2, ECT, MAP etc. whether hot in run or while running. Any ideas?

Don't mean to be goofy quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that the cam sensor wires came detached while I was unplugging it from the sensor and moving it up to remove the shrink tubing, the wire came out of the crimp without so much as a tug, and so possibly the connection was just barely there to get an intermittent signal. However, I thought the car would run SEFI without the cam signal..?
 
Well, the connection to the cam sensor wasn't it. I've also now checked over all of the connections, but I now have a call into FAST as well as to Cal from Hartline, and Cal was much quicker to reply than FAST. Anyhow, he's come highly recommended on this site, and so I'll lean on him a bit. I have now checked power to the ignition with the key hot and while cranking, and that's all good. Just no activity at the injectors when I'm cranking it. Not until it finally fires that is... I'm thinking it's got to be ECU related unless there is a sensor the injectors rely on that's not functioning right?
 
Sounds like a cam/crank signal issue. I have a customer taking his 30-215010 ecu off (upgrading to an XFI)I could probably send you his ecu. Like I said in the PM, give me a call.

FWIW: A lot of the fast mod motors I have tuned weld a mount on the valve cover and run a distributor off of one of the cams.
 
Sounds like a cam/crank signal issue. I have a customer taking his 30-215010 ecu off (upgrading to an XFI)I could probably send you his ecu. Like I said in the PM, give me a call.

FWIW: A lot of the fast mod motors I have tuned weld a mount on the valve cover and run a distributor off of one of the cams.

CAL GAVE ME THE BEST DEAL ON MY B2B SYSTEM. I TIRED LOOKING FOR OVER 3 MONTHS, it didn't matter. 1 Phone call to cal, and his first offered price was cheaper then anyone on this board.

Not to mention.... his wife took my order AFTER HOURS, while on the ROAD, and Cal Called me to verify my order and follow up as well with emails and pm with start up programs.

GO SEE CAL GO SEE CAL GO SEE CAL. Heh its a cali car commerical humor.
 
Sounds like a cam/crank signal issue. I have a customer taking his 30-215010 ecu off (upgrading to an XFI)I could probably send you his ecu. Like I said in the PM, give me a call.

FWIW: A lot of the fast mod motors I have tuned weld a mount on the valve cover and run a distributor off of one of the cams.

I got your e-mail last night Cal. Thanks for the help. I tend to think you're right about the cam/crank signal problem. I have a call into you right now that I told your wife I'd follow up on this Thursday when I get back from outta town. Also, on the ECU front I did get a response from Lance at FAST by e-mail today, and he didn't suspect anything awry with my ECU, and wanted me to check further with an injector and timing light (spark & fuel). I've checked to make sure I have 12v to the ignition with the key in "run" and when cranking. With it running an EDIS-8 module it doesn't need the ECU to create spark, just to advance or retard it. I could pull the spout I installed just the same to get it to 10 degrees BTDC timing just in case the ignition is whacked. I'm pretty sure it's my injectors that aren't firing, but I'll check that tonight. Good thing I have a fully charged dry cell!

I have wondered if the distributor off the one valve cover is the way to go or not, as I've seen on MMR's site etc. Seems like it's an expensive mod if there's no real benefit though..? However, I can be sold if there's a rationale. I'm also contemplating upgrading to an XFI, but at the same time I like my older version 30-215311...
 
When you said "no injector activity in the dashboard" what exactly do you mean? Do you consistently see RPM when cranking?
 
When you said "no injector activity in the dashboard" what exactly do you mean? Do you consistently see RPM when cranking?

I do in fact see RPM on the dash when cranking.

UPDATE: I tested the injectors tonight with a test light I rigged up (connected one wire to 12V and the other to the injector trigger wire side of the injector connector) and I saw that the injectors were getting their signals. I don't know why I didn't notice it until now, but when I turn the key the fuel pump primes, but when I'm cranking it the fuel pressure drops to nothing. I have the Aeromotive fuel pump relay and an A-1000 with a manual override switch, and so I hit that to give it full pump when cranking and it fired right away first crank...

So, I guess my issue is related to the fuel system and not the FAST ECU after all. I currently have the aeromotive relay switched from the OEM pump wire and a tach signal that comes from the MSD, as I have the stock ECU plugged in for the basics, and piggy-backed by the FAST for the crucials. The fuel pump switch was something I lost when I switched the ECU to SEFI, and I never noticed what the fuel pressure did before when I cranked it. It's possible that it's my Aeromotive relay or perhaps I even blew a fuel pump fuse.., but you'd think it wouldn't prime if the fuse or circuit was gone. Anyhow, I have it narrowed down now which is what I needed to do.

Thanks for all the input guys...
 
Aeromotive fuel systems. Just give Kyle Fickler a call he should be able to help you out great guy. 913 -647-7300 or cell 913-515-4170.

Steve
 
Aeromotive fuel systems. Just give Kyle Fickler a call he should be able to help you out great guy. 913 -647-7300 or cell 913-515-4170.

Steve

Thanks for the lead. I always try and do what I'm told, and so I called Kyle at Aeromotive and he patched me through to Brett right away because the question about using the OEM ECU piggy backed was beyond him. Anyhow, Brett said that absolutely the pump needs to keep cycling when in crank, and so if the pump is interupted while cranking, it's because the signal the PWR on the billet controller is interupted. (The PWR on the controller gets 12v milliamperage to trigger the pump.)

Brett suggested that I find a wire coming from the ignition switch that is "hot in run" as well as "hot in crank" if that's possible, and if not I can always run a wire from the starter solenoid and splice it with a 12v "hot in run" signal and just be sure to put in a one way diode between the toggle and the wire from the solenoid so I don't get more amps back up through the wiring to the switch, and take that back to the PWR input on the controller. I didn't realize that's why I bought all that Aeromotive. They're really helpful and very knowledgable...

Using the stock ECU to control the fuel pump was a bad idea I guess. It seemed to work at first, but that's probably only when I cranked right away close to when the "prime" occurred so that just enough pressure remained to start it. I know with the stock rails and FPR they retain much of the fuel pressure after the prime, and so continuous pump activity during cranking isn't necessary or it's delayed with the Cobra's relay and relay resistor etc... Oh well, you live and learn.

Thanks for all the help again guys. All the intellect resides here I can tell. Mine is still under debate..? I still am contemplating an XFI upgrade and so I'll be talking more with Cal on that when I get a chance. I'm also curious to see if the distributor on valve cover setup is a better way to improve the ignition system from the EDIS-8 setup I'm running..?

Regards,

Spud
 
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