Crank Seal part # ??? for OE GM timing cover

Anthony P

sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
what brand and part # for a neoprene crank seal are we all using today on a GM cover? Looking thru an old notebook and then the PowerSource book I have the following:

National (Timken) 472319 (from PowerSource book)

Victor Reinz (now maybe Mahle) 65025SF

Felpro 15200


National 710162 (looks like Felpro 15200)

Timken 710162 ( has wide OD flange lip)


The Victor Reinz 65025F looks to be the seal (orange in color) in the cover for a spare engine (disassembled- in pieces).
 
TA Performance has one that works perfectly on a GM cover. It has a steel casing that presses in and will not pop out.
 
Thanks @ek02. TA does not make 'em so I'm trying to determine which of the the above part #'s are being used today. And, with private label packaging today, someone might confirm that a few are the same seal but in different brand labelled packages.

Felpro 15200 looks like a re-packaged National 710162

Victor Reinz 65025SF box label also has 15200 printed on it but we're talking about boxes that could be 20 years old. Products have changed over the years. Who knows how old the e-catalog parts pics are and if they accurately reflect the actual part today.

In today's world, we have to know what we are buying. Why spend $20 for a seal, when the same seal in a different box is $5. Do that enough times with all purchases and you're really pissing $$$ away.
 
Try Autozone, part # 65025SF . It looks just like the TA seal for 8.99. The TA seal is only 9.95 for the GM cover.
 
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Price the felpro TCS45930 timing cover gasket kit. They're usually the same price or cheaper than just the seal.
 
Try Autozone, part # 65025SF . It looks just like the TA seal for 8.99. The TA seal is only 9.95 for the GM cover.

Yes, that's the Mahle 65025SF seal that TA Perf is using - blue colored outer. It's the same as the orange Victor Reinz's seal (same part #) now that Mahle has absorbed Victor Reinz (and Clevite)

https://bangshift.com/general-news/...ow-mahle-clevite-and-victor-reinz-came-to-be/

Price the felpro TCS45930 timing cover gasket kit. They're usually the same price or cheaper than just the seal.

Hi Earl, yes I'm familiar with the Felpro kit but I'm using GM gasket kits (12337540) that do not have the crank seal. Wanted black color gaskets for the day when I replace the OE timing set with that nylon coated cam gear.

Just to verify, does your seal go in the front or the back of your cover?

the attached pic shows the orange colored Victor Reinz seal installed in the front of this 1986 test engine's timing cover.

Earl has one left of these orange colored Victor Reinz 65025SF crank seals on his ebay listing. Maybe he has more in his stash of parts.
 

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Hi Earl, yes I'm familiar with the Felpro kit but I'm using GM gasket kits (12337540) that do not have the crank seal. Wanted black color gaskets for the day when I replace the OE timing set with that nylon coated cam gear.


If you're wanting to stay factory original, you need a rope seal with the metal backer. I have a few hundred of those in NOS form. :)

The neoprene front seals I have are solid black in color.
 
Hi Earl, the last Buick 231 I built was in 1993 so I figured I'd upgrade to a neoprene seal for this front cover work and catch up to the times.

What had me confused is the pic in your ebay listing with that orange (and black) seal.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Gran...FEAAOSwkChaobfz:sc:USPSFirstClass!07885!US!-1

But that Victor Reinz 65025SF can't be the orange seal in that 1986 test engine front cover I pictured above. the test engine seal is installed from the front while the 65025SF is installed from the inside. That test engine was NOS from Flint in 1986. Some test was done, engine torn down - parts logged and discarded. Engine rebuilt for new test. So, at some point, a neoprene seal replaced the rope seal in that timing cover.

Perhaps the Felpro 15200 and the Victor Reinz (Mahle) 65025SF are the same seal. Federal Mogul (Felpro) uses a pic of the seal from the back for their e-catalog while Mahle uses a pic of the seal from the front for their e-catalog. I'm not sure.

But private label packaging is done between Mahle and Felpro on intake gaskets. Ordered a Mahle Original MS15958 shipped & sold by Amazon. Inside the Mahle box was the Felpro 96033 blue gasket. Not an issue, just surprised.
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What's going on with the seal in the FRONT of the cover?

hey Rick, that's part of my questioning. GM covers are to have the neoprene seal installed from the inside. But I have a 33 year old test engine timing cover with a neoprene seal installed via the front adding to my questions about what brand and part # seals are used today.

And I'm not having much success identifying the seal in that '86 cover.
 
just pulled my Victor Reinz 65025SF and its blue
what am I gonna do know LOL. I must have a rare one worth a fortune :LOL:IMG_2274.JPG
 
What had me confused is the pic in your ebay listing with that orange (and black) seal.


That's a fairly old picture, so who knows what they look like now. I have FelPro in stock at the moment and they're solid black.


Personally, I have no idea what the color or supplier of the packaging matters.

A lot of name brands have merged in the last few decades.
 
What's going on with the seal in the FRONT of the cover?

There is no flange on the seal. Can install it from the back or the front. Just need to have the seal lip facing the proper direction.

From Bruce: "If you want a front crank seal that goes in from the front, then you want a National 710613."

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
That's a fairly old picture, so who knows what they look like now. I have FelPro in stock at the moment and they're solid black.


Personally, I have no idea what the color or supplier of the packaging matters.

A lot of name brands have merged in the last few decades.


Thanks Earl. For me, knowing the current product, packaging and its availability (or lack thereof) is of great help. Whether walking about a show/swapmeet or Carlisle, etc that knowledge would be most important in deciding whether to buy a part. maybe the older version is better than the newer version or the newer version has been value engineered and is now made offshore. And then there is the possibility a newer version has had the flaws or limitations in the old part corrected.

Whatever the case, there are times where it is helpful to know how old the product is you are looking at and if the price makes sense for what it is.

Merging companies are hard to keep track of. At SEMA last year I was supposed to meet up with one of the Norton Abrasives reps. couldn't find their booth the first day. only when I got back to the hotel where there was good wifi did I look on the computer to see Norton has booths inside and outside in the tent - all under the parent company Saint-Gobain. While Saint-Gobain bought Norton in 1990, it was always Norton in MA and New England.

I think post #16 is out of context. @RmvBfrFlght is referring to my pic in post #8 showing a 33 year old GM timing cover with a neoprene seal installed from the front. GM test facility personnel did that in 1986. Was trying to figure out what they used and why they did that crank seal install from the front. It's pretty clear it's a GM cover.
 
I was thinking the same thing as Earl. That’s why I said something but it totally looks like O.E. casting.

6 of 1 half a dozen of another. It really don’t matter what side the seal goes in as long as it fits.
 
... it totally looks like O.E. casting.

Hi Rick, it is. All from a 1986 FCA serialized (valve cover label and cylinder head sticker) LC2 test engine.

All the notes from the name brand aftermarket seals like Felpro 15200, mahle (Victor Reinz) 65025SF and National 710162 are to install from the inside for a GM cover. And the aftermarket timing covers use a different seal installed from the outside front.

So, thought I might be able to figure out what these GM development guys did, why they did it and identify the seal they installed via the front of the cover. next will be to research what RemoveBeforeFlight forwarded from Bruce about that National 710613 seal.

For me, it's a research and investigation project to learn something and not just simply to do the task at hand and change-out the rope seal when I have the timing cover off to update the original timing set.
 
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