billet roller 210/210; short travel or stands johnson lifters?

[outatime86]

Thinking of upgrading from a 218/218 flat tappet to a 210/210 billet roller cam; wondering if I should get the short or standard travel johnson lifters? I also know I'll have to measure for pushrod length too but was curious as to which lifter is the better with my combo. Mostly street driven
once a month 1/8mile car, twice a year 1/4 mile car. Running T4 rotella 15-40w.

-champion heads, t66, forged pistons/rods/crank, FAST ecu, 3000 LU torque converter w/built trans.....many supporting mods.

Thanks!

 

[Turbo Archie]

What springs??

 

[outatime86]

Comp Cams 941's

My machine shop just called and let me know that the heads need some work. 6 helicolis for the exhaust values, 1 brass guide was wiped out, going to do a valve job and resurface the heads and install new 941 springs. With my old springs he was only able to get 70-80 seat pressure @ 1.75 height I believe.

 

[Turbo Archie]

the heads need some work. 6 helicolis for the exhaust values, 1 brass guide was wiped out, .

Not sure I follow. Can you explain the helicoils

 

[Turbo Archie]

So these are iron heads?

 

[outatime86]

I'm not sure just going by what the machine shop said. They said I need 6 helicoils for all my exhaust ports.

Aluminum Champion GN1 heads.

Thank you archie for your input!

 

[outatime86]

I miss spoke, I meant helicoli the bolt holes for the exhaust ports not exhaust valves. I stripped the bolt that holds the oil dip stick, and I guess he found 5 others that were close or beginning to strip

 

[BEATAV8]

The 941 looks pretty light on seat pressure. Probably want something with more seat and maybe a softer rate. I’d use the reduced travel lifter and a decent rocker arm. Scorpions would be ok just do your own quality inspection on the whole set before using, seen them screw up some rocker ratios recently.
Do some google research on spring seat pressure in boosted engines.

 

[Turbo Archie]

What rocker ratio are you using, what lift on the cam?

 

[TIMINATOR]

Short travel lifters will make more power! But you really need an adjustable valvetrain to use them, OR you better have your headwork done at a very good machineshop. You will need the stem heights even on both heads to .010", the block must be BHJ decked to within a thousandth or so on the height, and both heads need to be surfaced to the exact same amount, as all of these factors affect the pushrod length, and you only have a trave rangel of .050" typically.
Be careful using roller rockers that are "adjustable," due to the way they oil thru the pushrod and oil needs to feed thru the adjusters to the rocker body to feed the trunnion and tip bearings. The "adjustment" range is typically only a max of two turns total, otherwise the adjuster and rocker body oil holes won't line up, and the rocker won't oil. Set one rocker to the middle of its adjustment range, and run the pushrod length on all 4 corners of the heads, make sure everything will work with the same length pushrod, or use standard (.100"/.120") travel lifters. Or next time find a better machineshop. Stock decks usually run off by .010" to .025"corner to corner, so don't try to use short travel lifters unless your block has been BHJ decked, and your heads are fresh too.
You didn't mention if your block has been machined, and to what precision.
IMHO you will need at least 125+ lbs spring pressure for any turbo Buick much above an "entry level" build. There are some good spring pressure threads, I suggest you read them.
TIMINATOR

 

[outatime86]

1.5 rocker ratio, t&d but they are stamped GN1, when I called t&d they said they made them for the GN1 heads based on the date n serial code on the rocker.

 

[BEATAV8]

1.5 rocker ratio, t&d but they are stamped GN1, when I called t&d they said they made them for the GN1 heads based on the date n serial code on the rocker.

Good stuff!

 

[outatime86]

Short travel lifters will make more power! But you really need an adjustable valvetrain to use them, OR you better have your headwork done at a very good machineshop. You will need the stem heights even on both heads to .010", the block must be BHJ decked to within a thousandth or so on the height, and both heads need to be surfaced to the exact same amount, as all of these factors affect the pushrod length, and you only have a trave rangel of .050" typically.
Be careful using roller rockers that are "adjustable," due to the way they oil thru the pushrod and oil needs to feed thru the adjusters to the rocker body to feed the trunnion and tip bearings. The "adjustment" range is typically only a max of two turns total, otherwise the adjuster and rocker body oil holes won't line up, and the rocker won't oil. Set one rocker to the middle of its adjustment range, and run the pushrod length on all 4 corners of the heads, make sure everything will work with the same length pushrod, or use standard (.100"/.120") travel lifters. Or next time find a better machineshop. Stock decks usually run off by .010" to .025"corner to corner, so don't try to use short travel lifters unless your block has been BHJ decked, and your heads are fresh too.
You didn't mention if your block has been machined, and to what precision.
IMHO you will need at least 125+ lbs spring pressure for any turbo Buick much above an "entry level" build. There are some good spring pressure threads, I suggest you read them.
TIMINATOR

I bought a used block just out of the machine shop not sure if they BHJed it. Probably will go with standard roller llifters from johnson.

My machine shop L&R Engines, has the heads right now, they called n said I need new valve springs they recommend 941z, they have my cam at the shop too and recommended 145 closed seat pressure. But will call me before seating them. The springs that were on the heads barely seated at 75lb, they said the overheating wiped them out.

Thank you to all who chime in, what a learning curve its been.

 

[TIMINATOR]

Easy to tell if it's square decked, measure from the main saddle to the deck on all 4 corners. It should be closer than .001"
Easy to tell if it's been line honed too, the bearing bore will have a fine straight circular machine pattern if line bored, and a nice perfect cross hatch if line honed. Either way, the cap mating face would be machined, and also the front of the cap too. BHJ decking without a line hone FIRST, is half ass. I have never seen a 36 yr old block NOT need to be line honed or line bored.
With short travel lifters, put the preload in the middle of travel, usually about .025", with regular travel, we prefer preload to be up from the bottom about .025"- .030".
Easy way to measure travel: put lifter on a wood block in a drill press, chuck up a pushrod, blacken with a Sharpie, from the end, up about a quarter inch above the lifter body.
Apply enough pressure until all oil is pushed out of the lifter, depending on oil viscosity and temperature, this can take a few minutes, and a bunch of pressure! Then pump it up and down several times until no more oil comes out of the sideport or pushrod seat, scribe around one side of the pushrod with a razorblade. Then fully depress the plunger and scribe another mark. Measure the difference between the marks with a dial veneer. That will be the lifter plunger travel. Normal lifters have around .125" travel, and short travel lifters about .050". Now you know everything.....
TIMINATOR

 

[outatime86]

Just called my machine shop and asked for a 170 seat pressure closed @ 1.75 height, and he said it will settle to 160 after a few hundred miles. My rockers are T&D 1.5's, and the heads are Champion GN1 ported to match the felpro 1200 gasket. He also measured my 210/210 cam for lift and said it was 520 lift.

When I looked at the block it was wrapped up and I opened to look n measure 1 cylinder, the cross hatching look great and its a .30 over block. I'm happy that the pistons, rods, and crank were already machines with the block to get balanced. Saves me a lot of time and money on machine work. I am very happy atm, can't wait to install this and go play!

 

[Mr.Spool]

Just called my machine shop and asked for a 170 seat pressure closed @ 1.75 height, and he said it will settle to 160 after a few hundred miles. My rockers are T&D 1.5's, and the heads are Champion GN1 ported to match the felpro 1200 gasket. He also measured my 210/210 cam for lift and said it was 520 lift.

When I looked at the block it was wrapped up and I opened to look n measure 1 cylinder, the cross hatching look great and its a .30 over block. I'm happy that the pistons, rods, and crank were already machines with the block to get balanced. Saves me a lot of time and money on machine work. I am very happy atm, can't wait to install this and go play!

With the 210/210 billet cam on irons or aluminum heads I feel 160 on the seat you are lite on the springs if you want to rev the motor and make real boost.

 

[outatime86]

With the 210/210 billet cam on irons or aluminum heads I feel 160 on the seat you are lite on the springs if you want to rev the motor and make real boost.

Ive got GN1 Champion heads full port n port matched intake, plenum, rjc air diffuser, 70mm TB, custom Garrett cored 3" FMIC, 3.5 DP no cat. Forged crank, i beam rods, je pistons. Fresh trans n 9.5 3200 LU ptc, built trans and suspension. I'd like to run the most boost I can get Norbs to tune my FAST B2B with 91 n methanol. My guess is 30 max with alky n pump gas while keeping a good tune n afr but that will be up to him. I had comp turbo go thru n rebuild my t66, I was afraid after I overheated so I thought better safethen sorry at this point.

What springs n seat pressure would you recommend for a 210 billet hydraulic roller with 520 lift?

Thanks Mr. Spool

 

[outatime86]

120lb new injectors, 340 pump hotwired, stock fuel lines, accufab regulator. Stock fuel rails. For now until FAST tell me I need more.

 

[Turbo Archie]

once a month 1/8mile car, twice a year 1/4 mile car.

Thanks!

What was your best 1/4 to date?

 

[Mr.Spool]

Ive got GN1 Champion heads full port n port matched intake, plenum, rjc air diffuser, 70mm TB, custom Garrett cored 3" FMIC, 3.5 DP no cat. Forged crank, i beam rods, je pistons. Fresh trans n 9.5 3200 LU ptc, built trans and suspension. I'd like to run the most boost I can get Norbs to tune my FAST B2B with 91 n methanol. My guess is 30 max with alky n pump gas while keeping a good tune n afr but that will be up to him. I had comp turbo go thru n rebuild my t66, I was afraid after I overheated so I thought better safethen sorry at this point.

What springs n seat pressure would you recommend for a 210 billet hydraulic roller with 520 lift?

Thanks Mr. Spool

With a twin nozzle setup you can run all the boost if your tuner wishes.
180/200 on the seat and 460/500 open.
Those comp turbos are incredible