Article on Why Billet Turbos Make So Much Power and The Different Types of Billet Wheels

marleyskater420

still needs to learn
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
With everyone coming out with new turbos and saying they are running "billet wheels, I thought it would be nice to write something up giving a basic explanation of the various types of turbo wheels. This link is an article that I personally wrote that does its' best to explain the differences between the different types of billet compressor wheels out and available today, and also why they are able to make so much more power than the older cast wheels we are used to from turbos of yesteryear; like the TE44, TE60, etc..

If you have any input on the article, please post.

https://www.boostedrps.com/single-p...rpay-Or-Be-Fooled-Into-Buying-The-WRONG-Turbo
 
very informative, have never seen or heard what and why as you have explained,
still somewhat confused, but will re read , and learn more,
' thanks!
 
Thank you for the feedback!

May I please ask what parts of the article you are confused about? Maybe I can try a different approach to explaining the topic? My goal was for everyone who read the article to understand it, so please let me know what was confusing and I will work on a better approach towards explaining the subject matter.
 
Tyler,
Have read the article a couple times, very informative in my opinion, personally it gave me a better understanding of how and why,
Interesting read, does explain the difference in wheels, gains, and cost difference.
Keep writing!!!!!!!!!!
 
Nice article very informative.

Might want to put some price point comparisons in it for emphasis, even if it's just the wheel pricing and perhaps other machining/housing pricing if changes are needed to accept billet wheels?

As far as the conclusion however I thought EVERYONE chose a turbo based on the coolest technological bling factor, peer or vendor pressure (or hatred), or some obscure race class rule designation... ;)
 
very informative, have never seen or heard what and why as you have explained,
still somewhat confused, but will re read , and learn more,
' thanks!

What sections of the article were you confused about? I was talking with another forum member a little bit ago and he said that the Compressor Maps part lost him and he was a bit confused. It made me think I should either add to this article and explain Compressor Maps, or write a separate article on Compressor Maps.

I want this article to be one of THE Go-To articles that people refer to when they want to learn about billet turbos. Any information about what parts were confusing would be incredibly helpful to me.

Tyler,
Have read the article a couple times, very informative in my opinion, personally it gave me a better understanding of how and why,
Interesting read, does explain the difference in wheels, gains, and cost difference.
Keep writing!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for your feedback!

I plan on writing more in the article after I hear what areas left some people confused.

I also have been working on an Intercooler Efficiency article as well that I need to finish.

Nice article very informative.

Might want to put some price point comparisons in it for emphasis, even if it's just the wheel pricing and perhaps other machining/housing pricing if changes are needed to accept billet wheels?

As far as the conclusion however I thought EVERYONE chose a turbo based on the coolest technological bling factor, peer or vendor pressure (or hatred), or some obscure race class rule designation... ;)

That is a good idea, to add price points for various turbocharger types!

Would you think it be best if I ended the article with a "Price Point References" section at the end of it, and have average pricing of; cast, flank-milled, hybrid flank/point-milled, and point-milled wheels?
 
That would be a nice touch to add comparison pricing.

Just be very accurate if using competitors pricing as examples, as we all know how that can turn out... :p

Can a billet wheel be made for a stock GN turbo or has it already been done? One will all the magic milling too. :cool:

Might make it easier to go after one of those "stock" turbo records. ;)
 
That would be a nice touch to add comparison pricing.

Just be very accurate if using competitors pricing as examples, as we all know how that can turn out... :p

Can a billet wheel be made for a stock GN turbo or has it already been done? One will all the magic milling too. :cool:

Might make it easier to go after one of those "stock" turbo records. ;)

Yes, it can! The new G4 turbos from WORK also come in "Stock" appearing housings! I wouldn't recommend the 6765 in a TA housing, but the 6262, 6265, and 6465 can ALL be had in the "Stock" style "TA" compressor housings! And they can all be made with ball bearing center sections, if you want!

As far as the pricing examples, I think I will also post links to the pricing that I give, so that people can see for themselves...because for example, the PTE turbos...if you don't look in the "Entry Level" section, you won't see the flank-milled turbos and their pricing, and will most likely end up in the "Street and Race" section with their point-milled wheels, which has much higher pricing.

On a somewhat related note, have you seen the new PTE Gen 2 88 XRP CEA wheel??!! It is for their Pro Mod 88 turbos- a new "XRP" level wheel that performs allegedly 8-12% ABOVE what their Gen 2 CEA wheels flow! That is CRAZY!
 
article is good! its just my "old" mind that takes a while to comprehend the info,
the suggested cost would be helpful when trying to determine a turbo choice,
some of us "seniors" have to decide if its meds, or buick parts from our social security checks.
 
As far as nomenclature.. when you say flank-milled wheels are you referring to the more common MFS term, machined-from-solid that is used by some? And top-of-the-line fully-machined billet wheels and entry level MFS or flank-milled billet wheels are both made from the same billet stock but the entry level billet wheels are machined in a simpler less time-consuming mass production type of way... thus less complex wheels with less features?

A good question is how many more features are there in an entry level billet wheel vs a cast wheel? Are some manufacturers entry level billet wheels just a copy of cast wheels while others throw in some extra features? For example...Garrett's entry level turbos are cast wheels, Precision's are MFS billet.... the Work entry level one's are billet but don't explicitly say more than that to differentiate from the higher level billet ones.
 
What about the turbines in these new PM turbos? some say Garrett is using older turbines in the 65mm.?
 
What about the turbines in these new PM turbos? some say Garrett is using older turbines in the 65mm.?

CLIFFNOTES of my Post:
1) Point-milled wheels have been used for quite some time now.
2) The new G4 turbos from WORK are NEW point-milled wheels
3) I believe that Garrett turbos are more durable and have better center sections than Precision
4) Just because a turbo may use "old" wheels, does not mean that it does not perform well. You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Think how long Turbonetics has had their F1-based turbine wheel around...yet it still performs great!

I'd like to clarify something real quick. The point-milling process is not a new thing. Precision and Garrett have been using this process for years. This is why the Precision turbos and the Garrett GTX turbos always seemed to make the most power. In my humble opinion, it seemed like Precision spent a majority of their R&D money on having the best performing wheels, and when it came to the build quality of their center sections/rest of the turbo, the quality suffered. When comparing the Precision units' durability to a Garrett GTX's, the PTE really doesn't stand a chance. I also think this is why the Garrett stuff is typically viewed as having more longevity and being an all-around better built piece.

For reference on my statement that the Garrett internal parts are viewed as better performing than the PTE internals, here is a video from TurboLab of America, in which they state that The Garrett ball bearing center section spooled 500rpm FASTER than the Precision center section of a similarly sized turbo!!!

http://turbolabofamerica.com/catego...62-turbo-upgrade/precision-6262-gt35r-hybrid/

Please keep in mind that these statements are all my opinion. This is my opinion and not fact.

With that established, the new G4 turbos from WORK ARE NEW TURBOS. These are brand new point-milled turbos.

The turbines in the G4 turbos are a combination of WORK's own design, with some borrowed features from the GTX and GTW turbos.

I want to take a moment to emphasize a point that I think some people forget to think about;
*Just because the turbo may use "older" technology in it, it does not mean that it is not a good turbo. Companies make tweaks and modifications to wheels all the time, and sometimes the older wheels-specifically the turbine wheels- perform so well that they base their new designs off of the original style. It does not mean that the new turbo would perform worse than a ground-up designed wheel. You have to take these on a case-by-case basis.

I will say that the G4 turbos, the GTW turbos, and the GTX Gen 2 turbos are all brand new designs. Whether or not they have turbine wheels based on older wheels is irrelevant in my opinion. What should matter to you, as the consumer who is spending their money on these turbos, is how well the turbo performs. NOT what generation wheel design the new models are based off-of. This is not to say that you should blindly accept a new turbo as being better than the old. I am saying that you should base a turbo off of how well it performs, how durable it is and the longevity of the turbo, and how well does it suit your goals and combination for your car? THAT is what matters most.


I'll respond to the other two posts in a bit. I have to go to Fedex right now to hopefully pick up my Stage 2 manifold that has 12 injector spots in it, with 4 fuel rails :D

If it shows up at the Fedex location where it SHOULD be, I'll post pics the next time I post :)
 
article is good! its just my "old" mind that takes a while to comprehend the info, the suggested cost would be helpful when trying to determine a turbo choice, some of us "seniors" have to decide if its meds, or buick parts from our social security checks.

Thank you for the feedback!

If there is anything in the article that you would like me to explain further, or perhaps formulate an alternate analogy for, please let me know. The whole point of this article was to try and explain a somewhat technical issue in terms that your average person who has never read about this, can understand. If there are parts of the article that you still do not understand, please let me know and I will do my best to try to explain them in a way you can comprehend.

1)As far as nomenclature.. when you say flank-milled wheels are you referring to the more common MFS term, machined-from-solid that is used by some? 2) And top-of-the-line fully-machined billet wheels and entry level MFS or flank-milled billet wheels are both made from the same billet stock but the entry level billet wheels are machined in a simpler less time-consuming mass production type of way... thus less complex wheels with less features?

3) A good question is how many more features are there in an entry level billet wheel vs a cast wheel? 4) Are some manufacturers entry level billet wheels just a copy of cast wheels while others throw in some extra features? For example...Garrett's entry level turbos are cast wheels, Precision's are MFS billet.... the Work entry level one's are billet but don't explicitly say more than that to differentiate from the higher level billet ones.

Before I get into my response, I went back into your post I quoted and numbered your questions and put the number of each question in bold, underlined, and in red color writing. I will address each question

So my response may be a bit confusing, so I am going to try to be as clear and concise as I can, although these questions have answers that may get convoluted...and I know that I tend to ramble and write really long posts, so I will try to make a "Cliffnotes" section when I am done.

1) Cliffnotes for Question 1) :
*MFS is the same as flank-milled
*Depending on who the manufacturer is, a MFS wheel can be a high performance wheel, or an economical/budget wheel
*For us Buick guys, when a company says their wheel is a MFS wheel, basically EVERYONE EXCEPT PTE means that the wheel is a flank-milled, most likely 2618-billet-aluminum, wheel, and uses all or most of the advanced design features I listed in my article. When PTE says their wheel is a MFS wheel it means it is NOT a 2618 aluminum wheel, and does not have all the advanced design features I listed in my article.
*It is common for manufacturers to have multiple types of flank-milled wheels for any given size. This means you could have some flank-milled wheels made from 2618 aluminum and be very high performance, and some flank-milled wheels be a company's "economical/budget" wheels (like PTE's MFS-labeled turbos).

Complete Answer for Question 1) :
Yes. In every instance that I have personally seen, whenever the manufacturer refers to a wheel as a "MFS" wheel, it is a flank-milled, billet wheel. MFS is just another way to say "flank-milled". The quality of a MFS wheel changes from manufacturer to manufacturer, which is why it is important to be able to look for the design characteristics I listed in the article.

Please keep in mind that each company is different, and what one company's MFS product consists of, may not be the same for the rest. I can say that for companies like WORK, Garrett, Borg Warner, MP Turbos, and KTS, when they refer to a MFS wheel it simply means a flank-milled wheel, which is most likely made from billet 2618 aluminum. So just because you see MFS it does not mean that it is a lower-quality part, you have to take into account who the manufacturer is and what they consider a MFS wheel to be. Please note that companies like KTS, BW, WORK, etc have multiple MFS aka flank-milled wheel options, so the high performance MFS wheels typically use 2618 aluminum, but the economical / budget wheels that are flank-milled will not use 2618 aluminum, as these wheels are designed to be budget-build turbos and have a lower price point at the center of their design.

An example of the different levels of flank-milled wheels in a company's turbos would be Borg Warner; they have their SX, SXE, and EFR wheels. The SX, SXE, and EFR wheels are all hybrid-flank/point-milled wheels, but the SX wheels do not have as many aerodynamic features used on the wheel as compared with the SXE wheels. Same goes for the SXE wheels when compared to the EFR; the SXE wheels are not as high-performance as the EFR wheels (to be fair, the EFR wheels are the pinnacle of what Borg Warner has to offer, and the SXE wheels are absolutely amazing wheels that make STUPID power!) A SX wheel will make less power than a SXE wheel of the same size. A SXE wheel will make less power than an EFR wheel.

For instance, companies like PTE have MFS-wheeled turbos, which are made from a different grade aluminum and NOT made from 2618. Those are the economical "Entry Level" turbos that do not use all of the design features I listed in my article. The reduction in performance and material quality is reflected in the price point of these turbos, as these are more economically-priced turbochargers. Here is an example of a "MFS"-wheeled turbo from Precision:
https://www.precisionturbo.net/turb...ails/Entry-Level-Turbocharger---5931E-MFS/524

To put it simply for us Buick folk, when you see "MFS" for the turbo wheel type, if it is talking about a PTE turbo, it is their economical, budget-friendly turbos that are not ideal for higher performance engines and cars. When you see MFS from Garrett, MP Turbo, Comp, WORK, or Borg Warner, it just means it is a flank-milled wheel, but it most likely has all the aerodynamic design features that I listed in my article, used on the wheel.

I WILL ANSWER QUESTIONS 2, 3 AND 4 IN MY NEXT FEW POSTS....

IF YOU GUYS THINK I SHOULD ADD THESE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS INTO MY ARTICLE TO HELP CLARIFY THINGS, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WILL EDIT MY ARTICLE AND ADD A SECTION AT THE END OF IT, KINDA LIKE A "FAQ" OR "COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS" PART OF IT TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK MIGHT HAVE THE SAME QUESTIONS....PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU THINK THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA!!
 
1)As far as nomenclature.. when you say flank-milled wheels are you referring to the more common MFS term, machined-from-solid that is used by some? 2) And top-of-the-line fully-machined billet wheels and entry level MFS or flank-milled billet wheels are both made from the same billet stock but the entry level billet wheels are machined in a simpler less time-consuming mass production type of way... thus less complex wheels with less features?

3) A good question is how many more features are there in an entry level billet wheel vs a cast wheel? 4) Are some manufacturers entry level billet wheels just a copy of cast wheels while others throw in some extra features? For example...Garrett's entry level turbos are cast wheels, Precision's are MFS billet.... the Work entry level one's are billet but don't explicitly say more than that to differentiate from the higher level billet ones.

2) CLIFFNOTES FOR QUESTION 2) ;
*It depends on who the manufacturer is to determine if the point-milled wheels and the flank-milled (aka MFS) wheels are made from the same material
*ALL flank-milled (aka MFS) wheels are made using a simpler process than point-milled wheels, which means they do not perform as well
*A point-milled wheel will ALWAYS make more power, spool faster, and perform better than a flank-milled wheel.
*You can have hybrid wheels that use both flank-milling and point-milling on the same wheel. Garrett, Borg Warner, and WORK are the manufacturers that I know that do this.
*Hybrid wheels use point-milling to make the complex angles at the most important areas on the wheel, and flank-milling on the areas of the wheel that are not as crucial. This speeds up production time while maximizing output when compared to a 100% point-milled wheel.
*You can have flank-milled (aka MFS) wheels of all performance levels; using every advanced aerodynamic feature they can, or wheels that are made with low price-points and economics in mind.

2) Complete Answer for Question 2)
It depends entirely on who the manufacturer is, to determine if the MFS, aka flank-milled wheels, and point-milled wheels typically are made from the same or from different types of billet aluminum. As you can see in my answer for Question 1, basically everybody besides PTE has their top-of-the-line flank-milled (aka MFS) wheels made from the same billet 2618 aluminum material that their point-milled wheels are made from. Keep in mind that this is true for the top of the line flank-milled wheels and may not be true for all the flank-milled wheels they make, because manufacturers often make many "levels" of performance output for wheel sizes and types. So you can have the highest-quality flank-milled wheel use the same 2618 material that the point-milled wheels use, but the economical flank-milled wheels will not use the 2618 aluminum, and will use a much cheaper aluminum that will help to keep the price point of the wheel down so that the turbo can have a low price for the consumer.

The following is true for every flank-milled (aka MFS) wheel; it cannot use a wheel design with the same complexity as a point-milled wheel. The complexity, especially when referring to the initial blade angle, and the extended-tip angle/backcut-angle, plays an incredibly vital role in the performance of the compressor wheel, and is directly related to how well the wheel performs. The more complex the wheel shape (assuming a properly-designed shape / all things considered) the more performance you will have from it.

Regardless if you are talking about a MFS wheel from PTE (which means it is an economical / not high-performance wheel) or a MFS wheel from WORK or MP Turbo, the wheel will never be able to create as much power as a point-milled wheel. Using better materials allows the manufacturer to use design features like the slim nose/slim hub/extended blade, etc because the compressor's wheel material is stronger and can take more pressure and force on it. Because the wheel can take more force they can make the blades physically thinner, which helps to reduce the weight of the wheel while still having the strength required for the performance output they are looking for. The higher quality material allows performance gains that stem from reductions in mass/weight of the wheel, like the thickness of the blades, the length of the blades, how steep the angle of the blades can be. All of those things add to the performance output of the wheel.

However, when manufacturers make their MFS wheels out of higher quality billet material, like 2618 aluminum, and use a hybrid point/flank-milling process, they can get incredibly close in the performance output of the flank/point-milled hybrid wheel compared to a 100% point-milled wheel. The only companies I know that use the hybrid flank/point-milling wheels are; Garrett, Borg Warner, and WORK.

I WILL ANSWER QUESTIONS 3 AND 4 IN MY NEXT FEW POSTS....

IF YOU GUYS THINK I SHOULD ADD THESE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS INTO MY ARTICLE TO HELP CLARIFY THINGS, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WILL EDIT MY ARTICLE AND ADD A SECTION AT THE END OF IT, KINDA LIKE A "FAQ" OR "COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS" PART OF IT TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK MIGHT HAVE THE SAME QUESTIONS....PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU THINK THIS WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA!!
 
As promised, here are some pics of my Stage 2 intake I picked up today that Fat Nat sold me. This intake was fully ported by Wilson Manifolds and made 1572hp previously. I'll be shooting to top that number by 100hp on Kenny Duttweiler's dyno when he builds my engine.







 
Looking forward to the intercooler write up
 
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