3800 L36 Series II Turbocharging Help

[TypeTOwns]

Ok, i need help. i own a 96 camaro with the 3800 v6

I know the buick 3.8l and the 3800 are way different engines. but when speaking about blocks... is the 3800 series II block just as strong as the 3.8l buick block?

Also, I know to turbocharge my car it will be hard work so i need some advice for a route to go.

Should i

A.) find a older rebuilt Turbo 3.8l Buick Engine/tranny and swap that into my camaro with some PCM tunning

or

B.) Rebuild the 3800 Series II to withstand very high psi

I am not sure which route to go, i know both will cost a good ammount of cash, but im afraid that my 3800 series II block wont be able to handle high psi. But dont know that for sure, i just cant find alot of information on my engine. Id like to rebuild the 3800 seires II engine to be able to handle over 25+ PSI. But im not sure what i can do maybe someone can help me out here with the proper steps and forged internals i should replace.

Thanks
- Anthony

 

[Darth Fiero]

Since I have turbochaged my L67 block with L36 heads, I will offer my experience below.

First of all, according to my machine shop (who just happens to do a lot of LC2 machining) the 3800 Series II blocks are VERY WELL put together. They particularly liked the cross-bolted main bearing caps and much improved oiling system. It was their opinion that comparing stock to stock, the L36/L67 blocks have a strength advantage over the older LC2's.

Pertaining to your situation, the L36 and L67 share the same block and crank. However, the L36 has lightweight pistons and rods therefore I would advise you to not boost on them. While the two engines share the same crank, the balance differs because the L67 rods and pistions are considerably beefier.

My advice to you is to find L67 internals and apply them to your L36; or you can use a whole L67 but you will need to drill and tap holes for your starter location. There is a gentleman who has a GTP running a turbo who has gone high 10's on the L67. Since these cars/engines have became so popular, aftermarket parts are becoming more affordible by the minute.

Besides, I belive the 3800 Series II has many advantages over the LC2:
-Roller cam
-Roller rockers
-Better heads
-Better oiling system
-Better bottom end


Check out the following links for info:

www.zzperformance.com
www.intense-racing.com
www.pfyc.com

Time will tell but I believe the L67/L36 is a very solid platform on which to build, possibly just as good as the LC2 if not better in many ways.

 

[TypeTOwns]

Thankyou for the advice darth. Before I was very lost.
Iv heard of L67 engines capable of handling over 350+ HP and Torque with stock internals which is pretty damn good. But i wasnt sure how much of the bottom end of the L36 compared to the L67 had in common.

I have re-evaulated my goals and 25 psi is a bit high

16-18 psi would be more senseable.

Yes, forged 8.5 compression pistons, strong rods and bolts i will deffinately be needing.

How are the gaskets on the 3800 L36? are they quite strong?

I will consider buying new ones since my block has a good ammount of miles on it (71k) I was actually considering buying a whole new engine which iv found complete L36 RWD engines for less than $600 with very low miles under 30k, but i probably wont it would be a waste if my block is good.

From what it sounds like the roller rocker arms are in quite good stock. are they only roller rocker arms in the L67?

Would you suggest L67 crankshaft?

my 60 year old pops knows a few people that work at machine shops i could maybe get a deal from for balancing rotating parts. and whatever else can be done

Do you believe i will need a new oil pump as well?

And one last thing. Camshaft, there is many different choices i can chose from. Iv heard many different opinions, N/A Cam's, Blower Cams, Turbo Cams, im guessing a good turbo cam would be better and have shorter lift and shorter duration for a turbocharged engine than a N/A cam would. but iv heard this isnt always good in some cases. Maybe you could enlighten me on this

I have fuel delivery and ignition covered for the most part in my mind for the future. 42# fuel injectors maybe larger, msd/cold sparkplugs, rising rate fuel pressure regulator, proper gauges, beefier fuel pump. Most likely PCM tuning. But that can all wait for now.

Thanks again for the advice and information

- anthony

 

[Darth Fiero]

Originally posted by TypeTOwns
Thankyou for the advice darth. Before I was very lost.
Iv heard of L67 engines capable of handling over 350+ HP and Torque with stock internals which is pretty damn good. But i wasnt sure how much of the bottom end of the L36 compared to the L67 had in common.

I have re-evaulated my goals and 25 psi is a bit high

16-18 psi would be more senseable.

Yes, forged 8.5 compression pistons, strong rods and bolts i will deffinately be needing.

How are the gaskets on the 3800 L36? are they quite strong?

According to a friend who has a GN, he says the stock head gaskets for the L67 are very similar to the LC2. I have not heard of anyone having problems with gaskets other than the intake and oil pan for these engines. If you are rebuilding one of these engines, be sure to observe the TSB's out that explain how to rectify the intake/oil pan gasket problems GM had.

I will consider buying new ones since my block has a good ammount of miles on it (71k) I was actually considering buying a whole new engine which iv found complete L36 RWD engines for less than $600 with very low miles under 30k, but i probably wont it would be a waste if my block is good.

From what it sounds like the roller rocker arms are in quite good stock. are they only roller rocker arms in the L67?

ALL Series II 3800s had 1.6 ratio roller rockers. L36 and L67

Would you suggest L67 crankshaft?

my 60 year old pops knows a few people that work at machine shops i could maybe get a deal from for balancing rotating parts. and whatever else can be done

Yes, I would use an L67 crank to start with, even if you are balancing the assy. My parts lookup shows that the L67 and L36 are the same part number, but there could be factory machining differences that I don't know about. Furthermore, the balancing is going to take less time and money if you start with the L67 unit.

Do you believe i will need a new oil pump as well?

No. Just have the stock one checked and cleaned. It is a VANE type oil pump that is located in the front cover and is driven directly off the crank. They rarely go bad.

And one last thing. Camshaft, there is many different choices i can chose from. Iv heard many different opinions, N/A Cam's, Blower Cams, Turbo Cams, im guessing a good turbo cam would be better and have shorter lift and shorter duration for a turbocharged engine than a N/A cam would. but iv heard this isnt always good in some cases. Maybe you could enlighten me on this

Your cam selection should be in tune with what you want to do with the car. The thing to watch here is lobe seperation angle. Most of the N/A cams have a lobe sep of 112 or less which may not be good for a turbo app. The SC cams have a lobe sep of around 115 or so which keeps the boost from pushing air right out the cylinder during valve overlap. A note about the stock heads: most places say the stock heads max out on flow at about .500 lift so if you are not porting them then my guess is it would be worthless to use a cam that has a gross valve lift more than .510" or so. If you are porting the heads then the sky is the limit but keep in mind that you are using a ROLLER cam which will allow near peak flow for longer duration than a flat tappet so the key here is moderation.

I have fuel delivery and ignition covered for the most part in my mind for the future. 42# fuel injectors maybe larger, msd/cold sparkplugs, rising rate fuel pressure regulator, proper gauges, beefier fuel pump. Most likely PCM tuning. But that can all wait for now.

Thanks again for the advice and information

- anthony

Anthony, the L36 and L67 both use GM's "3rd" generation of DIS. Why anyone would think they need MSD or aftermarket coils is beyond me. The stock ignition is more than enough for a 10 second car provided you use good wires and plugs. My suggestion to you is to use Crane Fire Wire which is 25 ohms per foot. That is what I am using on my app, and no they don't cause RF interference.

 

[TypeTOwns]

thanks for helping me out

well, about the MSD, iv heard of people having problems with the coils in the stock L36. I personally havent had any problems. But iv just heard of stories. Maybe they just didnt take car of there car. lots of reving or or just beat there car.

well thanks again, if i have any more questions i wont hesitate to ask. i appriciate your help

- anthony

 

[Darth Fiero]

hmm, interesting. I have only heard of a few L36 coils actually going out but they are the same as the L67 coils. I have heard of someone putting jacobs coils on a stock module and it ended up trashing the module.

 

[beyerch]

I would like to add a few things :

#1 - The L36/L67, IMHO, is a much better platform to work with because the parts are much more available and they are more economical and the blocks will take the power.

#2 - With that said however, the one weakness in the L67 is the pistons. While they are beefier than the l36, they are very prone to breaking up under any detonation. The top of the piston breaks off quite easily under detonation or high boost, so I would recommend getting aftermarket forged pistons as a requirement for sure.

#3 - Since you are going to replace pistons... you can get an L36 long block quite cheaply. If you are on ebay you can find them in the $150's for a completely engine !

#4 - The BIGGEST drawback, in comparison to the GN, is the front wheel drive configuration. The FWD transmissions are not nearly as strong as a good RWD trans. They can take a beating for a while, but long term, the RWD will hold together longer.

For the reasons above that is why i converted to a series ii turbo as well.

I purchased a complete 2k2 firebird v6 setup and went to town on that. I bought the whole front clip of a car with 25 miles on it for <$800. I started to build an 87 and realized that to just get a stock performing 87 long block i'd be way up there in price. I just couldn't stomach spending all that money only to have to go through it all again if anything broke ........

 

[Darth Fiero]

Originally posted by beyerch
I would like to add a few things :

#3 - Since you are going to replace pistons... you can get an L36 long block quite cheaply. If you are on ebay you can find them in the $150's for a completely engine !

Don't forget that the L67 rods are beefier than the L36 rods. I would not boost of the L36 rods, they are quite thin.

 

[beyerch]

agreed

I agree completely about the rods. I just was assuming you'll do the rods with the pistons but I should have been more clear.

sorry for any confusion on that'

 

[Darth Fiero]

Re: agreed

Originally posted by beyerch
I agree completely about the rods. I just was assuming you'll do the rods with the pistons but I should have been more clear.

sorry for any confusion on that'

no prob, I was just pointing out that it might be cheaper to find an L67 at the junkyard - supercharger or in the junk pile since most of those make it there because of main or rod bearing failures do to idiots using surfacing discs to clean intake and head faces when GM's plastic gaskets go bad, rather than trying to find used or buy new L67 rods.

 

[nocutt]

I concor with Darth and Charles!...and to add, ultimately even with forged pistons or L36/L67 slugs the fate of the engine will lay PRIMARILY on the state of its tune...after spending $$$.x on this project if you chose to, I wouldn't cheap out on Engine Management...

 

[TypeTOwns]

Well, i went to a local garage today and a LC2 swap is deffinately out of the question, the price would be insane for a complete engine/transmission plus wiring and additional costs.

I thought maybe if i could get the LC2 cheap it would be a better deal but it woudlnt be since so much custom work would have to be done.

So within a few months i will have enough to start such a project with the 3800.

 

[Darth Fiero]

From what I have heard you can use the 86 or 87 vin "3" FWD block which will accept LC2 internals. I have not verified this but if it would work it would be a cheaper alternative to using the 3800 as 3.8 Turbo parts are cheaper to come by.

If you are going to go with a 3800 I strongly suggest you step up to the series 2 engines as I have elected to do with my Turbocharged Fiero. The series II engines have a 1" shorter deck surface which will give you more room in the Fiero engine bay. They also have roller cams, roller rockers, superior heads, etc. Remember that as with the turbo 3.8 engine, the N/A counterparts of the Series I and Series II 3800's had different internals (ie: stronger rods, pistons, etc).

 

[TypeTOwns]

Well the 3800 Series II is what i have stock right now, i will considering finding a Newer long block 3800 II depending on the condition of the engine, which i have takin very good care of it. iv added a lower temp thermostat and a manual control fan switch for those hot stop light days (75k Miles)

I was also reading that the (98&+) 3800 Series II had stronger heads then the years before.

I was asking around but i couldnt find an answer to how much power the stock crankshaft can handle on the 3800 Series II N/A

Pistons and Rods are my #1 concern as always have been.
Im more concerned about the strength of everything else though.

 

[Darth Fiero]

I have also heard about the 98-up heads. Supposidly the 97 and older heads had thinner casting around the exhaust valve spring seats that made them prone to cracking. I am running 97 castings on my turbocharged 3800 right now and have not had a problem. Haven't ported the crap out of the either so maybe thats why people were having problems...

 

[TypeTOwns]

Well, I can easily find a low mile 98+ RWD long block for around 200-400$

I have spoken with intense-racing.com. And they told me the crank in both the L67 and L36 are exactly the same.

They currently carry 10 different pistons sets.

So i guess within the next couple paychecks I will be picking up some well suited pistons and rods.

From my research and others spoken the rest of the L36 block is strong enough to handle high boost, I was told i may want to pick up some felpro gaskests and arp bolts since they are not expensive and a good investment. I will most likely do so.

I dont plan to boost over 16 to 18 psi at the track and street i will keep my boost lower but with the 3800 v6 and good traction, that should put me into 12's

 

[Darth Fiero]

they are correct; the cranks are identical except for the balance might be off because of the weight difference in rods and pistons. but since you are thinking of using aftermarket pistons you are going to have to balance the engine anyway. the blocks are also identical with the exception that the RWD block will have starter holes drilled and tapped on the opposite side; no big deal. remember that the L36 rods are NOT THE SAME as the L67 rods so I would NOT boost on the stock L36 rods because they are significantly weaker. good luck with your project and from what you have mentioned, 18 lbs of boost with high flowing characteristics of the series II heads should yeild some impressive results.

 

[TypeTOwns]

Yes, rods are a concern for me, intense-racing has a set of very good rods from what iv seen in there project cars they have successfully ran over 18lbs of boost without problems. Perhaps you would know where else i could purchase some very strong rods for the 3800 II.

 

[TypeTOwns]

would any of these products be nessessary or are the stock ones strong enough to handle some good power?

Clevite 77 Bearings
ARP main stud kit
ARP Connecting rod bolts
ARP Head studs
Valve Springs 130# w/ Retainers

 

[Darth Fiero]

good question, I have heard of a few people running up to 17 lbs of boost on a stock engine with only bolt-ons and haven't heard of any issues yet. I think the stock SC rods are just as good as the stock turbo rods for the LC2, they should be able to handle just about anything you throw at them as long as you keep the revs under 6000 rpm. I am running ARP head bolts, not studs but the everything you have listed there would be good insurance if you are already rebuilding the engine anyway.