200-4r didnt last 20 miles!

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Hi all - i finished my 200-4r beginning of the year. New drum, hardened input, carbon band, sonnax pump upgrades and sonnax servo - A carr shift kit.. followed specs, set sonnax at about 110 thou, thing was dumping atf out somewhere over my hot headers.. removed pump today and it looked ok but metal debris everywhere and looks like black carbon in fluid - not terrible but def not good :/

Cars been sitting for 5 months - guess im gonna have to tear back into it- I think the pump wasnt sealing well (2 halves) :/ never did psi test i could tell something was wrong - im gonna look for a good used pump from wrecker and use that-

Not sure when ill have time to tear it down - maybe this coming week, ill update. Just had TC rebuilt thats toasted too now :/
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Where was the fluid coming out at? If it was the over pressure in the pump it could have been the vent at the top of the trans. When you had the pump apart did you pull the roll pin and spring and ball in that over pressure relief? If the seat and or ball isn't nice it will pass pressure and leave the trans with less than ideal amount. The seat can be " dressed" with some lapping compound on a qtip in a drill. Need to clean it real good after the procedure. Ball needs to be nice and not pitted. Spring needs to be the "right" one. The bison/d Husek mod with the washer between the roll pin and spring is a nice addition.
Sounds like it is going to need some new clutches at the min. I would have set that band clearance tighter. If it got hot and looks torched inside a new set of rubber would be advised too.
Let us know how you make out on it.
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
hey tex, never really saw where it came out - ill have to check the top vent tube when its out.. As for the ball id have to check too it was about 5-6 months ago but yes I did have everything apart and put it back. I did cut the pump on my lathe but I might have screwed up there- was a heck of a job for a southbend 9, interrupted as heck! Im just gonna get a good used one and use that.

Re-cap on Mods (also for my own recollection) :
  • Sonnax apply valve kit
  • Sonnax boost valve + sleeve
  • Sonnax slide spring upgrade
  • Art Carr shift kit
  • Sonnax Servo
  • Sonnax acc piston (think this went a little odd, something didnt match or something id have to check when I pull it out)
  • Rebuilt ATI TC 3200 stall (Art Carr)
Trans still it ran ok before i pulled it just slipped alot from very worn direct drum, worn to heck but still driving. I just followed sonnaxs instructions but will revise that on re-assembly - maybe ill buy the adjustable one (for about the same price!). Ill check the drum and go thru clearances again. I did seem to get them right- clutches and all were in spec, i was pretty meticulous and had it apart numerous times :) no major hurry.

Bummed! Ill update with pics when i tear into it- I think next time im gonna hook it up to a sbc and run it on pallets and do line tests!
 

dvernst

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Hi all - i finished my 200-4r beginning of the year. New drum, hardened input, carbon band, sonnax pump upgrades and sonnax servo - A carr shift kit.. followed specs, set sonnax at about 110 thou, thing was dumping atf out somewhere over my hot headers.. removed pump today and it looked ok but metal debris everywhere and looks like black carbon in fluid - not terrible but def not good :/

Cars been sitting for 5 months - guess im gonna have to tear back into it- I think the pump wasnt sealing well (2 halves) :/ never did psi test i could tell something was wrong - im gonna look for a good used pump from wrecker and use that-

Not sure when ill have time to tear it down - maybe this coming week, ill update. Just had TC rebuilt thats toasted too now :/
Did you set the TV Cable?
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
So for a recap, the pull down into low/first goes ok? Firm application? The 1-2 shift has a sloppy shift and won't pull a string out of a cats a$$. Did you make it to a 2-3 shift? If it isn't crisp the clearance needs tightened up. Or the vb plate holeight need a size adjustment.

I'm no guru but I've broken a lot of trans over the yrs.
 

dvernst

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
hey tex, never really saw where it came out - ill have to check the top vent tube when its out.. As for the ball id have to check too it was about 5-6 months ago but yes I did have everything apart and put it back. I did cut the pump on my lathe but I might have screwed up there- was a heck of a job for a southbend 9, interrupted as heck! Im just gonna get a good used one and use that.

Re-cap on Mods (also for my own recollection) :
  • Sonnax apply valve kit
  • Sonnax boost valve + sleeve
  • Sonnax slide spring upgrade
  • Art Carr shift kit
  • Sonnax Servo
  • Sonnax acc piston (think this went a little odd, something didnt match or something id have to check when I pull it out)
  • Rebuilt ATI TC 3200 stall (Art Carr)
Trans still it ran ok before i pulled it just slipped alot from very worn direct drum, worn to heck but still driving. I just followed sonnaxs instructions but will revise that on re-assembly - maybe ill buy the adjustable one (for about the same price!). Ill check the drum and go thru clearances again. I did seem to get them right- clutches and all were in spec, i was pretty meticulous and had it apart numerous times :) no major hurry.

Bummed! Ill update with pics when i tear into it- I think next time im gonna hook it up to a sbc and run it on pallets and do line tests!
How did you have the TV Cable adjusted? If you didn't adjust it this is your problem.
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Hi - sorry was busy at shop tearing her down. I checked the vent tube - dry as a bone..

Not a single issue found.. everything looks fine- drum got burnt though, i think something in the pump was bad but i was too keen to get her running didnt do any psi tests (i will this time round!)..

either way still cant figure out where the small metal bits are coming from. Only possibility is the shop that rebuilt my TC, maybe they left trash inside - i never had metal particles before.. only since i drove it less than 10 miles with the rebuilt tc..

TV set with correct geometry - ie at max throttle the cable is fully pulled out. I set it up 11 years ago too and it drove cross country 3 times.. not an issue just very worn from alot of burn outs and general abuse-


I welded up a fixture and going to check clearances again..

Car seemed to drive ok but when I mashed it fluid blew out somewhere - ie under power.. it is a 500hp 383 recipe build.

Anyway - it hurts lol. alot of work!
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
heres the drum - lack of lube? as mentioned i did set the servo at .110 as per sonnaxs instructions..

is everything pointing to leaking pump?

And yes - I did run it in on jack stands for about 2-3 minutes to run in - drum was brand new and perfectly straight. Band was a carbon wideband..

drum.jpg
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
I haven't used a wide band but did set my regular width carbon up much tighter(like .060). We did some applying with air to get a feel for the drag by twisting on the output without the air applying the servo. We measured between the retaining ring and cover without the spring and seals, and had the servo in and out a number of times making the clearance we wanted. If i remember correctly. It has been a few yrs so I don't remember but do know from my notes the clearance. Did you soak that band( I know this is a point of contention but I felt like I wanted the band material soaked and expanded to get the clearance).

If the leak didn't come from the vent, maybe the servo leaked and wasn't applying the band .
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
everything was soaked yes- tranny came out super clean inside - ie no debris thank goodness, somehow it found its way into the pan though (from where?) ..

Tranny is back together - had to add a shim to snug rear end play up to 2-1/2 thou, center is at 7 thou and front at 7.. otherwise everything looked fine. Drum had some burn marks - but i think the pump had issues. I did it on my lathe and I had a bad setup (fixed now).. maybe there was significant cross leaking from the pump at WOT and thats what was spraying fluid out (tv cable maybe?) - another thought it maybe there was debris in the compression line to tranny cooler.

I think ill hook it up to a chevy on a pallet at the shop and run b4 installing again (and check fluid pressure)..

Question - so I faced the pump and pocket - seems it must have beena bit too much, this tiny hole appeared - it connects to the main hole, work arounds or is it toast?
 

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Chevyforce

New Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2020
Have you checked rotor clearance after machining the cover? If you went deep enough to brake through the surface, I suspect it sits pretty loose causing low pressure situation.
 

2QUICK2B6

Black Car Fever
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Had same problem 2wice with good parts … took
It to a local
Old man worked flawless for 5 years I beat the shit out of it .. then I got a real
Builder to build it… Witj first guy broke planatery gears an massive clutch material in pan twice
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
i bought a good used pump off ebay for 75 - machined it in front webs around the seal cavity so it will drain like the new style, drilled the drain hole to 1/4 "- and buttoned everything up..

Yes i did check with depth mic - im a little confused, should the slide and rotor be the same, but vanes 1 thou less, or should they all be the same and 1 thou less than the pocket. Noone actually explains this very clearly in all 3 manuals that I have -


Luckily no internal damage on mine - im back to a 7 vane, i dont think a 10 vane will make that much of a difference on a street cruiser any way.. hopefully have her back up ASAP, been asleep in the darn driveway WAY too long for all the work ive put into her!
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
7 vane is fine with the hard rings and a sonnax slide spring and stock inner spring in it. Did the rotor have some clearance?
 

2QUICK2B6

Black Car Fever
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
I hate to say this but get a good builder they will stand behind it .. I bought all billet parts an they are high
 

CamaroMan

New Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
rotor had about 1 thou - it came as it was running, pocket in gr8 shape.. no scoring - almost like a mirror. Im just gonna run it as is, sonnax uses just one spring, enough for the high rpm thing, I also did the TV boost and apply valve upgrade from sonnax in the pump, hardened rings yes. Also have their biller servo and accumulator setup, and art carr shift kit, carbon wide band and new drum, hardened input shaft and another drum (cant remember), pump also has hardened stator and teflon bushing-

Gonna run this on a pallet with a 350 chevy I gotta rebuild and will check pressures before installing this time-
 

TexasT

Texas, Where are you from
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
sonnax uses just one spring, enough for the high rpm thing, pump also has hardened stator and teflon bushing-

Gonna run this on a pallet with a 350 chevy I gotta rebuild and will check pressures before installing this time-
The use of the inner spring just gives the slide more tension so it will stay at the max volume in the higher rpm range.
Did you red locktite the stator fasteners in? Make sure the lube hole was not blocked with krudge? Stake that Teflon bushing so it doesn't back out? Open up the drain back hole in the pump so fluid doesn't push the seal out(I locktited the seal in too and used a seal retainer).
 
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