Twin pumps or 24v to surflow pump

[HEMI T04]

Im running out of flow with my alky system. Im using 35 GPH worth of nozzle flow at the moment and i think i still need more as im still pinging and my intake temps are not that low ( about 80 'c in the plenum), manifold is not really cold to touch or icing after a run and my egt is fairly hight 830 celcius before turbo . Im using the 100% Methanol injection alcohol as a fuel replacement because my GAS(LPG) flow is not enough above 10 psi boost. So the alky is my fuel above 10 psi boost and as my intercooler and octane booster.

At the moment my home made controller is maxed out and the more i open up the nozzles the more the methanol PSI drops !! So in effect im not getting much more flow as i can't maintain the pressure.

I'm wondering whats best and chepeast/easier, run another sureflow in series or parralel ? Or run this pump at 24 vdc. Runing 24 is easy as its just some wiring . Cause boosting is intermitent i dont think ill have overheating issues with it as its only at 60 psi now anyway, At 24vd it may be 100 or 150 im guessing.
Im wondering if anyone else, has used twin pumps ( does the model number have to be the same? i got my pump from you actaully razor .. it was a pump about 2 years ago to australia) or run the standard pump with 24 v dc. HAs anyone run a surflow at 24vdc ?

Or is their a way, i can alter the pump to have a different ratio so its more suited to flow rather than pressure? Razor i rember their was a sticky thread a while ago where you showed the guts of a sureflow opened up... i tryed searching but couldnt find it. If i could see the guts i could maybe see if i can change the motor to pump gear ratio maybe ?

 

[Razor]

The issue may be your trying to pad a poor fuel system with methanol. When you should be using the methanol for cooling and detonation control.

The pumps are rated at 1.8-2.0 gallons per minute. Atomization is important when shooting into the engine, especially at high flow levels.

Post your pressure readings and nozzle size. This will help determine if your not having a pump problem.

Also post your horsepower at flywheel or wheel.

 

[HEMI T04]

Yes in a sense it is a fuel system patch up, but im doing it on my purpose as im trying to lower my combustion temps down, as my main fuel is gaseous.
I have no other way or enricing it now apart from more methanol.

The last time i ran it a few months ago. the nozzles were an equivalent of 35 gph and the methanol presure was around 70 psi. My controller was maxed out PWM wise. Im pretty sure it was full 12v, but i didn't confirm if it was the same as running 12vdc dc direct to the pump( i may get some more flow with direct 12v wiring) Im actaully considering running a return line and rising rate pressure regulator with my pump at 100 %. And ill use my controller to trim the regulator boost reference.

I was running 18 psi boost. My car runs on gas (LPG) and has enough flow to handle about 10 psi boost. Anything more than that i need to enrich the mixture and cool it as i dont have an intercooler. So basically the horspower difference between 10 psi to 18 psi is how much methanol i have to flow. It would be at a guess arund 100 or 150 hp worth of methanol flow required. (on a fuel injector site using BSFC of 1.4 and 150 Hp worth of methanol, it said i need 210 lb/hr or 2205 cc/min, or 0.58 gpm or 48 gph) So if my pump could handle my 35 gph nozzles and be at 100 psi with them( ie. the hago nozzles are rated for GPH at 100 psi), im still not injecting enough fuel !! i need 48 gph worth of nozzles running at 100 psi to get the flow of methanol for 150 HP, which is what i think i need. So basically 2 pumps or 24v im thinking.

when i ran it, it did an awesom 0-100 time of 4.3 and showed 320 hp at the wheels on a gtech.

But i had intermitent coins in a tin can rattle pinging in 2nd gear, and then a little in 3rd at the 100 km/h mark. I have never run it on the 1/4 as i know its running lean !!

Im also gonna drop the exhaust and high flow a few things. So i have a feeling i have to double my alcohol flow !

Note, becuase my car runs on gas, which has no latent cooling ability in the combustion chamber... i need a lot more alcohol to cool the combustion down. As its the only form of liquid going in their.

My system is setup to be fail safe.. if my controller dies or if the pressure in the methanol line drops, the wastegate bleed blocks and goes to minimum boost 7psi instantly.

i think my pump is working ok ? any one else run these flow numbers 35 gph on a 100 psi sureflow pump?

 

[PhilM]

The WG 'safety' will not save you so don't rely on it and it is definitely NOT failsafe: There is a great deal of lag from when your safety activates till the boost actually drops. It may seem instantaneous to a human, but to the engine, only a few ms is all it takes for a lean condition to get a sweet tooth for destruction. The last thing you want is too little fuel, which apparantly is already the case. This applies to the fuel and alky system. I would not think of alky as a substitute for a peaked-out fuel system. Go from rich towards lean, you dont want to be in the visaversa case.

Also, ping is a nono. Carefully monitor EGTs and O2; if there is a condition of leanness, get off the gas, don't keep on going.

Finally, if your nozzle flow is 35gph (assuming at 100psi) , that seems plenty for the power you quoted. It is good to have them oversized a tad, although too much and you get poor atomization and pressure drop. Most cars we have tested do not need that much flow or anything more than one good-ol 1.8 or even 1.0 shurflo - sounds like a fuel problem to me - check your FPs, filter, or simply upgrade the system if it's still stock... Be lucky you didn't damage the engine already.

Phil

 

[HEMI T04]

I agree with what your saying, but i need the alcohol to cool my combsustion temps down. Which doesn't happen with LPG so i have to run more methanol. I dont have any other options at this point in time.

I would like to make the system safer, and any ideas are welcome. My boost cutback to 7psi is my main safety feature for now. Its the same problem for all of you if your methanol system fails. The only difference is im running a **** load more methanol. If whatever flow of methanol your running is stopping pinging, then with it gone anyone running methanol will grenade an engine if the system fails.

Thats why i have my wastegate solenoid bleed line solenoid of the 'Normally closed' type. So whatver happens the natural state, its closed and it will return to minimum boost. Or if my controller senses under pressure it will go to minimum boost.

im also considering running individual nozzles as flow distribution may be a problem wiht so much alchol.

I have a t in the methanol line and spray 10 gph before and 25gph after the turbo. I know the flow changes when boost increases as one nozzles has pressure head and the other doesnt. Im just tuning it out to basiclaly, with what the engine needs. And it needs more fuel now ! My turbo has a carbon seal. And becuase im using two 5gph im getting good atomisation before the turbo and dont believe im causing any damage to the blades. their is a draw through carby turbo engine here in AUS makeing 700 hp with my engine. No intercooler.

Do you guys get inlet manfiold icing after a 1/4 mile run? if not that may only occur on really high flow methanol systems.

 

[Razor]

You may need to look how your feeding the pump line wise. If your hose to the pump is limited in size, output will drop.

Also 70 PSI is low on pressure. Could be due to your controller design, hose diameters, etc.

At your HP level an M10 should be plenty at 100 PSI. So you need to install an intake air temp sensor to properly monitor intake air temp not look for icing. Bad data = bad things. Never make assumptions how things happen. And your pinging is a sign of improper supply of fuel into your engine. Possibly due to the LPG deal.

Tuning decisions need to be made on data from sensors. Not from visuals or "feels like" data. Feels like data will blow holes into pistons.

If your intake air temps are less than 140 DF and your air fuel is proper.. you shouldnt be having knocking. I dont know how methanol mixes with LPG so the target air fuel needs to be adjusted accordingly using the proper lamda value on a wide band sensor.

HTH

 

[HEMI T04]

Yeah , the inlet fitting is the size of the outlet of the standard plastic washer bottle reservoir, that i bought off you rasor. 3/8' im pretty sure. My pump is mounted in the boot of the car and the pressure line is 1/2" solid stainless to the front. If my pump inlet hose is too small the only way i could improve the flow is drill a hole and put another fitting in the plastic tank, and then Tee piece to the inlet hose. Which won't be very neat.

Im not sure if the pump is being restricted by the hose. Because i have 35 gph worth of nozzles and my pump flat out at the moment pumps 70 psi.

Who has used nozzles flows as high as mine 35gph ? and actually seen what pressure the surflow pumps can maintain?

Im guessing they would be something like this.


Ie. 100% flow, 10 gph nozzle= im guessing 150 psi
15gph= 120psi
25gph=100psi
35= maybe 100 to 80 psi?

Razor i have a thermocouple in the plenum chamber throttle inlet point, and im quite suprised also that my temps are not very low with the alky.

My temps at 18 psi boost were 180 f at inlet plenum and exhaust 1526f before the turbo.

And my nozzle were 35 gph at 70 psi, I also measure my nozzles flowing on the ground and flowed 1 litre in 25 seconds. So their is a lot of 100% methanol going in their but , seems to not be dropping my temps much? or my inlet probe is faulty,.. but then again my exhaust temps are high also. But then again LPG runs hotter and has no latent cooling ability. So thats why i think i need more methanol. As you said rasor it would be good if i tuned it to lambda, but thing is no one here in AUS knows what the lamba should be for my mix of LPG and methanol. So im doing all the tuning myself on the street. by EGT, i and i know my egt is too high.

 

[Razor]

All the new pumps will test to 250+ PSI on water using a 15 nozzle.

On a 15 nozzle using alcohol I get over 200 PSI. On 15+10 I have seen 170-180 PSI. Your pressures are low.


Contact me via email for system design questions. Some of this I dont like discussing openly on forums. :redface:

HTH

 

[HEMI T04]

will do. thanks