There are two methods of supplying fuel to the engine. One big pump or two small pumps having the second pump come on only when needed. With the two pump method,you can feed a 1,200 hp engine with all the gasoline it needs through the stock feed line while never overwhelming the stock return line. With the one big pump,you need to replace the return line on a 250 hp engine. This all started when Walbro ran a bad batch of pumps. The cry for a different pump went out. In came the DW pump that became an alternative for the Walbro. The problem with the DW was that it wasn't an apples to apples replacement. It was a higher volume pump. In the effort to solve a problem that Walbro solved we were fed this new pump that caused another problem. What is the big gripe about using two pumps by some in this community? The second one won't come on when needed and the engine will be destroyed. Many have been forced to replace return lines after purchasing one of these pumps.
Adjusting Bosch 233 regulator
- Thread starter Tori
- Start date
John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Like you said, the gripe (not really a gripe) is that when you depend on a supplemental system is if or when it fails, you are screwed if you are at WOT. A single system can fail also but at least there is only one part in the equation. It baffles me that some need a new return line and for me, I don't. I have a DW300. Not a problem in any way. It makes no sense to me that same parts operate differently in different cars. There has to be a reason: a kink somewhere, bad vent on the tank maybe, etc. Instead of figuring it out, folks just run another return.
Tori
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2013
Hi guys, and thanks for all the input.
The car is stock except for what is noted in my sig. No plans to take it to the track, and i don't want to have to build a trans because i've created 500hp.
I thought i was getting good advise from the well known member here on the site that sold me the pump and that i'd planned on buying the injectors from along with the updated chip. There's always so much conflicting information here it's easy to go the wrong direction.
I doubt i'll be able to return the DW300 now that it's installed, so lets say i plan on keeping it. I currently have 32# injectors.
The car is just a street driven toy. It will currently only hold about 10-12# of boost before i hear detonation. So, just quick stabs at the throttle are really all its good for. Anything longer than about 3 seconds of hard accel and you have to start lifting. I did notice it'll take a bit more throttle now with the DW300 than it used to with the stock pump.
What other info are you needing to help my cause ?
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John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
The easiest way to possibly find a restriction is to disconnect the return hose above the rear axle under the shield and run a clear hose from it into a gas can. Then start the car and watch to see if it flows well. Then work your way forward. You should probably disconnect the return line underneath the regulator and blow air through it. Air should pass fairly easy also.
And read this thread below:
http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/return-line-clogged-restricted.310450/
And read this thread below:
http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/return-line-clogged-restricted.310450/
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So the second pump is a supplemental system? Is the alky pump a supplemental system? There's no big fear,in this community,of the alky pump,yet the failure of this pump is much more common as well as the controller. I never blew a head gasket until I tried alcohol injection. I know of 2 people in this community who say their second pump failed to come on.I also know of no fear of a controller that runs one big pump. I don't understand the fear of the one but not the others.
How many times,in this community,has a kink or a bad vent been problematic to anyone after installing a Walbro 255 ltr/hr pump or a Red Armstrong xp pump? Once again the pump isn't the problem. It's a kink,a vent or a lazy car owner. Why are we using 600 hp pumps to feed 300 hp engines?
John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Yes, a second pump and an alky system are both supplements - the 2nd pump enhances the 1st and alky enhances the supplied fuel. I have had both on my car so it's not just speculation on my part. I have zero problem with you or anyone else doing whatever they like with their own car - enjoy, succeed, have fun. Facts remain facts.
I asked 4 questions. The one you answered was more of a rhetorical question. I would have liked to here your honest answers of the other three. I would like to stop seeing people be harmed by these pumps. The OP should have been able to put a pump in his car and ride off into the sunset,the cruise night,the drag strip,or the grocery store.
seedling
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2012
WOW!! This is some excellent tech right here! And based on these two links alone I'd say a huge number of cars on here probably have mismatched fuel systems. Somebody should rename this thread "choosing your fuel system" - pump and injectors and make it a stickie.
OP, I have one of the old bowling green customs stock appearing "adjustable" FPR's around here somewhere too. You may or may not have seen the massive south Louisiana flood, last August. But, it got us too. So a lot of my stuff (from the old house) is still in somewhat of a disarray. However, the bin that its in never got wet so it's all good.
Great info here thanks fellas.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
I reached out the OP. He and I will talk soon and get him up to speed with all of these "performance" upgrades." It's just bananas that he's got what amounts to a stock powertrain and it is suggested that he upgrade to injectors and a fuel pump to that capable of 700+ HP WITHOUT doing anything else to a factory original stock powertrain.
I found the OP original thread where he asked about injectors and fuel pump. For those interested, here it is.
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/what-fuel-pump.420527/#post-3487339
there was some good post for suggestions in that thread. But, at the same time, there are those who have highly modified cars suggesting what they use for a 9-sec car. Yes, opinions vary. Ask a question and you might get a different suggestion from everyone who answers. But it is irresponsible for a supporting vendor here or any member to recommend and sell this guy a $150 to $200 pump kit flowing 3X the stock pump capacity FOR A STOCK POWERTRAIN.
See post 23...he bought that dueshe 300 from and on the suggestion of a well known member here. Whoever here sold him that pump should take it back and give this guy a full refund so that he can buy and install appropriate parts for his configuration.
I'll start another post here with basic info we need to remember...
I found the OP original thread where he asked about injectors and fuel pump. For those interested, here it is.
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/what-fuel-pump.420527/#post-3487339
there was some good post for suggestions in that thread. But, at the same time, there are those who have highly modified cars suggesting what they use for a 9-sec car. Yes, opinions vary. Ask a question and you might get a different suggestion from everyone who answers. But it is irresponsible for a supporting vendor here or any member to recommend and sell this guy a $150 to $200 pump kit flowing 3X the stock pump capacity FOR A STOCK POWERTRAIN.
See post 23...he bought that dueshe 300 from and on the suggestion of a well known member here. Whoever here sold him that pump should take it back and give this guy a full refund so that he can buy and install appropriate parts for his configuration.
I'll start another post here with basic info we need to remember...
John Larkin wants to tell us that he has no problem with us doing whatever we want to do to our cars,completely missing the point while continuing to defend these pumps. I don't get upset because John or anyone else is doing something to their car that I don't agree with. They have the right to do what ever they want to their cars and I will fight for their right to continue to do that. They don't have the right to leave out any information to the ignorant when they come to them for advice. I'll fight them all day long when they do this. The most insidious way to lie is not to speak a lie. It is to purposely leave out a truth by not speakig.
Again,many people have been harmed by the incomplete advice from knowledgeable people in this community,regarding these pumps,for years.
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
All mods need to be based on the owners goals. If in the future the OP wanted to run 10s then the pump would be fine. He's stated he's not interested in going to the track all the time. High 12 mods would suffice for the time being.
He would not be fine because he would still have to replace his return line because it would still be overwhelmed at idle and low speed operation. If he had purchased a double pumper,he would not have a fuel pressure problem and would have been able to feed a 1,000 hp engine in the future with the stock feed and return lines. In the mean time,he could have disabled the second pump until such time as it was needed. He would likely never have to buy a fuel pump again and never any lines.
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
POINTS TO REMEMBER....
STOCK POWERTRAIN....
while rated at 245bhp, in reality was 280 to 290bhp at 14 psi boost. using 20% driveline loss yields about 225 to 230whp. stock wastegate actuator had a fixed rod so 12 to 14 psi boost was typically seen.
stock turbo TB0348 flows 550 cfm and with the stock intercooler is good for about 360bhp, max output for the stock.
the stock fuel pump was rated 110 l/hr (29gal/hr). stock injectors were rated 29.8 lbs/hr----Bosch 0-280-150-218. Stock fpr was Bosch 233 regulator...0-280-160-233
GNX
while rated at 276bhp at 15 psi boost, ALL GNX's were dyno tuned to a minimum of 310bhp. range was 310 low and 380bhp high....tuned with help of adjustable wastegate actuator rod. Richard Clark has all the GNX dyno records in his files.
made these bhp levels using the same fuel pump, fuel lines, injectors, fpr as the stock turbo regal.
My point is a lot of stuff can be done with stock components. When time and wear require parts to be changed, obviously consider complementary coordinating upgrades defined by the advances in tech and availability of parts.
Kirban sells an upgraded pump kit flowing 215 l/hr (57 gal/hr) that is more that adequate for up to 650 HP - about a mid 10-sec ET. probably like the old walbro 307. Price is $135
Mike Licht at full throttle speed sells the 255 l/hr (67 gal/hr) pump kit for the same $135. like the walbro 340, F20000169's, etc.
either pump capacity would be a fine choice for the OP as he already has the fuel pump hot wire kit installed. No changing of the fuel system hard lines with either pump.
the old Bosch blue top 36# injectors 0-280-150-967 would be fine for the OP.
the old Lucas/Tomco "blue tops" at 38# would be fine also.
40# disc injectors are more than adequate. and a matching TT chip would be and excellent combination.
why spend more $$$ on 60# injectors that won't see anywhere close to 80 percent duty cycle on a stock engine just because Eric can burn a chip for them?
AND anyone should have their basic tune verified before doing any upgrades. I.E. setting TPS, IAC, check plugs & wires, fuel filter, fresh gas, using Casper's C3I to verify coilpak and ignition module...
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/maintenance/maintpage.html
sometimes, it is the very basics that are overlooked. having a scan tool is a must. seen way too many folks swapping parts blindly because they do not possess basic scan tools.
So, it's this type of stuff I've offered to review with the OP over the phone.
"EDIT ADD: And I'm sure there are some talented and knowledeable folks in CA where the OP is located that can help him out, if needed, getting the basic tune worked out and getting a handle on the detonation he's seeing at 12 psi boost."
STOCK POWERTRAIN....
while rated at 245bhp, in reality was 280 to 290bhp at 14 psi boost. using 20% driveline loss yields about 225 to 230whp. stock wastegate actuator had a fixed rod so 12 to 14 psi boost was typically seen.
stock turbo TB0348 flows 550 cfm and with the stock intercooler is good for about 360bhp, max output for the stock.
the stock fuel pump was rated 110 l/hr (29gal/hr). stock injectors were rated 29.8 lbs/hr----Bosch 0-280-150-218. Stock fpr was Bosch 233 regulator...0-280-160-233
GNX
while rated at 276bhp at 15 psi boost, ALL GNX's were dyno tuned to a minimum of 310bhp. range was 310 low and 380bhp high....tuned with help of adjustable wastegate actuator rod. Richard Clark has all the GNX dyno records in his files.
made these bhp levels using the same fuel pump, fuel lines, injectors, fpr as the stock turbo regal.
My point is a lot of stuff can be done with stock components. When time and wear require parts to be changed, obviously consider complementary coordinating upgrades defined by the advances in tech and availability of parts.
Kirban sells an upgraded pump kit flowing 215 l/hr (57 gal/hr) that is more that adequate for up to 650 HP - about a mid 10-sec ET. probably like the old walbro 307. Price is $135
Mike Licht at full throttle speed sells the 255 l/hr (67 gal/hr) pump kit for the same $135. like the walbro 340, F20000169's, etc.
either pump capacity would be a fine choice for the OP as he already has the fuel pump hot wire kit installed. No changing of the fuel system hard lines with either pump.
the old Bosch blue top 36# injectors 0-280-150-967 would be fine for the OP.
the old Lucas/Tomco "blue tops" at 38# would be fine also.
40# disc injectors are more than adequate. and a matching TT chip would be and excellent combination.
why spend more $$$ on 60# injectors that won't see anywhere close to 80 percent duty cycle on a stock engine just because Eric can burn a chip for them?
AND anyone should have their basic tune verified before doing any upgrades. I.E. setting TPS, IAC, check plugs & wires, fuel filter, fresh gas, using Casper's C3I to verify coilpak and ignition module...
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/maintenance/maintpage.html
sometimes, it is the very basics that are overlooked.
having a scan tool is a must. seen way too many folks swapping parts blindly because they do not possess basic scan tools.So, it's this type of stuff I've offered to review with the OP over the phone.
"EDIT ADD: And I'm sure there are some talented and knowledeable folks in CA where the OP is located that can help him out, if needed, getting the basic tune worked out and getting a handle on the detonation he's seeing at 12 psi boost."
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Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
Fine obviously with the return line mods. Jezz, what nit picking.
Nit picking? This is the only problem that a different choice would have prevented. This is the only problem that we are talking about. This is the very problem we are trying to avoid. You said he would have been ok with this pump if he had bigger goals in the future. No he wouldn't. The pump would still have caused the only problem that we are talking about. The unnecessary replacement of the return line.
Tori
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2013
Just curious Rick, what is your fuel pressure after the pump replacement. Did you check it ?
43 line off, right where it should be. I have an adjustible regulator but i didn't mess with it. I'm sure by now you have researched that pump and found others have had issues with it. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I enjoyed reading your blog when you bought the car and drove it home.
