Air to water intercooler vs air to air
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
You will run ambient with an alky system. I can post logs 
But if you run a class that doesnt allow alky.. then you look at other avenues.
FWIW.. you'd be hard pressed to make a W-A for 600 including pipes, heat exchanger, fittings, clamps, and IC that will support the HP
But if you run a class that doesnt allow alky.. then you look at other avenues.
FWIW.. you'd be hard pressed to make a W-A for 600 including pipes, heat exchanger, fittings, clamps, and IC that will support the HP
Spearco
ARE
- Joined
- May 24, 2004
sure I don't have any right off hand but I will try to get you some shots tomorrow ok Daniel Ray
Thanks for all of the pics guys.
I like the way you have yours mounted Don I never thought of mounting that way.
Dusty your car is awesome. That is one of cleanest interiors I have seen on a drag radial car! Of course I biasised because I had turbo Buicks for about 15 years now but you car is one of my favorite drag radial cars.
I do have an alky system but my thought was that the cooler the charge started before the alky the cooler it would end up afterwards. This was the break down of the costs as I had it figured. I was looking at a W2A on Ebay for $200 that claims it can support 800hp and a two pass heat exchanger that is an uprgrade unit for 03/04 Cobras which claims it is capable of supporting 600rwhp for another $200. The pipes wouldn't be much because I can do that myself and I already have clamps and couplers and other odds and ends so that should less than $100 in materials then a new Linghtning pump for $70 but realistically it would probably need two pumps so that would add some. I was planning on making the tank myself so just about $50 to $70 in materials.
I like the way you have yours mounted Don I never thought of mounting that way.
Dusty your car is awesome. That is one of cleanest interiors I have seen on a drag radial car! Of course I biasised because I had turbo Buicks for about 15 years now but you car is one of my favorite drag radial cars.
I do have an alky system but my thought was that the cooler the charge started before the alky the cooler it would end up afterwards. This was the break down of the costs as I had it figured. I was looking at a W2A on Ebay for $200 that claims it can support 800hp and a two pass heat exchanger that is an uprgrade unit for 03/04 Cobras which claims it is capable of supporting 600rwhp for another $200. The pipes wouldn't be much because I can do that myself and I already have clamps and couplers and other odds and ends so that should less than $100 in materials then a new Linghtning pump for $70 but realistically it would probably need two pumps so that would add some. I was planning on making the tank myself so just about $50 to $70 in materials.
Do you have an intake temp sensor?
Why not datalog your temp like with direct scan using the alcohol.. if your at ambient, anything else you do will be a waste. You can use your MAT for this.
I would not buy a cheap IC and run water through it. If it cracks.. you will hydro your motor.
Its a carriage before horse scenario. Only make changes as the data tells you to do so.
But again.. what do I know
Why not datalog your temp like with direct scan using the alcohol.. if your at ambient, anything else you do will be a waste. You can use your MAT for this.
I would not buy a cheap IC and run water through it. If it cracks.. you will hydro your motor.
Its a carriage before horse scenario. Only make changes as the data tells you to do so.
But again.. what do I know
Typically any temp under 140 the power gain is negligible. You need temperature for your gasoline to function. The issue of temp plays a role when the incoming air into the engine starts climbing hard.. then at that time detonation starts setting in.
In the realm of making power.. maybe a few HP dropping temp 20-30 degree's once under that 130-140 number. Just like there is HP changing your alternator pulley from steel to aluminum.
Yes the lower air temp makes it denser.. but for every lb of boost you make, it creates 11 degree's of temp.. so at 20 PSI its ~220 plus ambient= 300 degree's easily. See an A-A IC can bring those temps down.. that is why monitoring is needed to see where your at before making rash decisions.
Look at cars running stock location IC's and alcohol injection.. they absolutely rock.
HTH
In the realm of making power.. maybe a few HP dropping temp 20-30 degree's once under that 130-140 number. Just like there is HP changing your alternator pulley from steel to aluminum.
Yes the lower air temp makes it denser.. but for every lb of boost you make, it creates 11 degree's of temp.. so at 20 PSI its ~220 plus ambient= 300 degree's easily. See an A-A IC can bring those temps down.. that is why monitoring is needed to see where your at before making rash decisions.
Look at cars running stock location IC's and alcohol injection.. they absolutely rock.
HTH
Not to put you on the spot Razor, just looking to gain some knowledge here.
Do you have documented testing or any other source that will back up your idea on this?
What if a person was planning on taking the boost level even higher than present levels? Wouldn't the extra btu capacity of an air to liquid intercooler help in that?
What about the space savings of a liquid over a super gorilla air to air? Maybe space is a premium with some people.
Wouldn't an air to liquid intercooler with a large 3 gallon plus holding tank with an alky injection kit on top of that be the ultimate? Assuming that someone is strictly looking for and can afford the ultimate that is.
If someone were using a more efficient intercooler system, wouldn't that mean you could back off a little on the quantity of alky injection and still stave off detonation? And, in the process making the small onboard quantity of alcohol last longer between fills, lessening the running around to refill your reservoir and the chance of having it run out on you?
And speaking of running out of alcohol. Wouldn't an air to liquid intercooler offer a little more protection in cases when you ran low of alcohol?
I just can't understand why you would argue down a superior intercooler setup? Let's just say that there wasn't air to liquid intercoolers in the world. That would be like saying you don't need a front mount, just use the stock one and inject more alcohol?
Do you have documented testing or any other source that will back up your idea on this?
What if a person was planning on taking the boost level even higher than present levels? Wouldn't the extra btu capacity of an air to liquid intercooler help in that?
What about the space savings of a liquid over a super gorilla air to air? Maybe space is a premium with some people.
Wouldn't an air to liquid intercooler with a large 3 gallon plus holding tank with an alky injection kit on top of that be the ultimate? Assuming that someone is strictly looking for and can afford the ultimate that is.
If someone were using a more efficient intercooler system, wouldn't that mean you could back off a little on the quantity of alky injection and still stave off detonation? And, in the process making the small onboard quantity of alcohol last longer between fills, lessening the running around to refill your reservoir and the chance of having it run out on you?
And speaking of running out of alcohol. Wouldn't an air to liquid intercooler offer a little more protection in cases when you ran low of alcohol?
I just can't understand why you would argue down a superior intercooler setup? Let's just say that there wasn't air to liquid intercoolers in the world. That would be like saying you don't need a front mount, just use the stock one and inject more alcohol?
Adam Connell
Monster Truckin since 87'
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
Why not just use a small shot of nitrous to cool the intake charge and use a frontmount... Other turbo cars have responded incredibly well to smaller shots of nitrous to cool the charges. Someone around here was talking about nitrous a few weeks ago... said it worked well with a 100 shot...
If there is one thing I have learned, it is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And that applies to more than just skinning cats, by the way.
Creative thinking and experimentation are the engines of invention. Never sell yourself or your ideas short.
Creative thinking and experimentation are the engines of invention. Never sell yourself or your ideas short.
Don, I understand there is a place and time for everything. And my response is under the assumption the car in question is a 10 second car. Meaning the HP is in the 500's. For this kind of HP.. not a lot of anything is needed. Its like putting Dusty's liquid IC on a stock Buick. Will it cool better than the stocker sure.. is it worth the trouble. No. IMHO.
Now lets talk 1500 HP.. aahhh way different. And again, without data.. guessing spends lots of time and money. Put the car at 15 PSI then 20 PSI.. then 25 PSI..and see what the intake air temps are.. make your decisions as you increase the squeeze.
I have done tesing without IC, done testing with large FM, small FM, and stock locations using alky. The stock locations will fit the bill in almost every slower than 9 seconds. I havent tested on a low 9 second car yet with a stock location. With a FM.. you get ambient or a few degree's above. Easy 30-40 degree's drop.
On my own car with a small FM, my temps will go down from 190 to ambient at 28 PSI using alky. First log you see alky doing its thing, you will never pull the system of the car.
Now lets talk 1500 HP.. aahhh way different. And again, without data.. guessing spends lots of time and money. Put the car at 15 PSI then 20 PSI.. then 25 PSI..and see what the intake air temps are.. make your decisions as you increase the squeeze.
I have done tesing without IC, done testing with large FM, small FM, and stock locations using alky. The stock locations will fit the bill in almost every slower than 9 seconds. I havent tested on a low 9 second car yet with a stock location. With a FM.. you get ambient or a few degree's above. Easy 30-40 degree's drop.
On my own car with a small FM, my temps will go down from 190 to ambient at 28 PSI using alky. First log you see alky doing its thing, you will never pull the system of the car.
Have you ever tried mounting the sensor at the front end of the plenum somehow? I know it wouldn't be easy with the EGR passage in the way, but any liquid alcohol or pcv oil that may get onto the sensor and mess up your reading would have a much harder time making the sharp turn to the front of the plenum. What do you think?
I have had the sensor mounted in three different locations. Two have been in the plenum(passenger side, drivers side), and the back of the intake. All three have yielded the same temp result. And have done measurements with the power plate and without. Same.
Havent tried the front of the intake. There is too much stuff there on most Buicks.
The temp logs go down as soon as you lift, then start climbing as the intake starts to build temp again.
I'll see if I can find my 10.55 @ 132.22 datalog and post it. I had posted it back in Nov'05
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...65-10-55-data-log-pix.html?highlight=reynolds
And here is with some nawz.. look at that temp line flatline
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...h/177528-nitrous-logs.html?highlight=reynolds
Dont try this at home :wink:
And here is with some nawz.. look at that temp line flatline
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...h/177528-nitrous-logs.html?highlight=reynolds
Dont try this at home :wink:
