BB turbos...Precision vs Turbonetics

[Rodney87GN]

Looking at the ball bearing turbos from Precision I see they require a water line kit while the Turbonetics BB turbos do not. I do like the idea of the water cooling with the Precision turbos but at the same time I see it as another area for problems or leakage. But I also like the Turbonetics turbos because installation seems simplified from not needing to run water lines.

So has anyone had issues with Precision's water setup leaking??

Any Turbonetics turbos going tits up because of no water cooling?

Trying to decide between the CPT 66BB or GT 6776BB.

[RUQWKNF]

There is a major difference between the two companies ball bearing turbos.

T-netics bb turbos use a single ball bearing on the compressor side of the shaft and a journal bearing on the turbine side of the shaft.



It does not need water cooling because it still takes the same amount of oil to cool the CHRA. However, you are not realizing the full benefit of a fully rollerized rotating assembly, although they do spool slightly faster than a regular journal bearing unit and cost less than a Garrett Dual bb equipped unit.


PTE uses a Duall Ball Bearing cartridge that is produced by Garrett. The entire cartridge is a self contained dual roller bearing assembly.



TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech101

The reason you have to run water to the cartridge is because it only takes in a very small amount of oil for lubricating the bearings. Not only does the cartridge have a built in restrictor, but these turbos come with a special reducer fitting that is made for a -4 AN line. The turbo does not rely on oil to cool the cartridge, (like their journal bearing cousins) it couldn't if it wanted too because of the very small amount of oil that is required to lubricate the cartridge. So Garrett added the water jacket to pull the heat out of the cartridge. According to Garrett, it is mandatory to run the water coolant lines to the cartridge on a street driven application, or else you will fry the CHRA, as well as void the Garrett warranty. Not pretty. On some all out racing applications, you will see GT42R series turbos with no water lines run to them. This is because typically, these cars will shut down at the end of a run and get towed back. Not enough time for the CHRA to really get hot enough to fry.

Garrett tested and perfected these new cartridges for years in WRC Rally Racing. Then they gave them to HKS to help further refine and perfect the dual ball bearing cartridges and to help design the product line up based off the the import market. GT28R, GT28RS, GT30R, GT35R, GT40R etc etc. Finally, after about 6 years of waiting, Garrett finally brought the dual bb chras to the US. Sold first in the GT28R, GT28RS, GT30R and GT35R. With the growing popularity of the T3/T4 based turbos, Garrett took the opportunity to offer an upgrade dual ball bearing chra and came out with the T3/T4 dual ball bearing cartridges. This allowed PTE to make some custom rotating assemblies for not only the Buick market but for other applications as well. They took the 6031R cartridge and added the GT35R compressor wheel and created the PT6131R turbo. (same compressor wheel used in the very popular 6152 turbo) Very popular and capable of around 615-620 fwhp when maxed out.



Then came the PT6176R. Same compressor wheel, but combined with the small shaft P-trim turbine wheel. Not many have made their way into Buick applications because in testing, we found that this combo was not very friendly in the journal bearing combo. However with the dual bb cartridge, this might change.

Next up came the ever popular PT6776R. Oh boy what an awesome turbo. This turbo was specifically created at the request of vendors who dealt with two very popular applications. Toyota Supra Turbos, and the Mitsubishi Evolution VIII. After both camps struggled to make decent power with the GT40R for months on end (decent meaning 600-700 hp to the wheels on decent boost levels) PTE finally created this new monster. The PT6776R with the TO4S compressor cover. From the get go it would support around 785 fwhp when maxed out. On those two applications the world blew up. We couldn't make them fast enough. That was 2 years ago and at the time, Don and myself were trying to come up with the next killer street combo, not only for his car, but for others as well. We knew the 60(65#) Mototron injectors where the best thing since sliced bread and he and I both agreed that when they finally got the water coolant lines and oil lines finalized for the Buick application, this would be the next Killer combo.

A good bolt on combo with aluminum heads, 60# Mototrons, alky injection, a good intercooler and one of these PT6776R turbos with a 3200 stall converter. A very basic high 10, low 11 second combo that would live. This is the combo that Don eventually wound up with on his GN. And from what others have reported, this turbo is capable of some very fast times with a purpose built 109. Now, I'm not bad mouthing the T-netics turbo as they have their purpose and have worked and continue to work very well for many people. But with the price that we have to pay to be able to run these types of turbos, I personally want a turbo that will spool up the fastest and has a rock solid reliability record. I really love my current dual bb TE-60R turbo. The spool up is insane. It's like putting a 3500 stall 9" converter on a stock turbo. Stupid fast. Now, I'm not trying to be a salesman here, nor am I trying to get everyone to buy PTE turbos,(subliminal suggestion to follow, get them from Hartline, Full Throttle or Cotton, subliminal suggestion ended) but in my own experiences, these Garrett dual bb equipped turbos are the bees knees. I run the water coolant line kit that PTE makes that is specific for Buicks and the lines and hoses work and route perfectly over to the factory T-body coolant lines located on the stock heater lines. No issues and no leaks here.







Once more people start upgrading to the new 70 series turbos with the dual bb CHRAs, and learn that they can lower the stall on their converter, you will start to see crazy mph numbers pop up as a result of less drivetrain loss by running tighter converters. Sorry so long, just trying to spread the word and report my own experiences.
Thanks for reading.

Patrick

[SouthernCal GN]

As always, Patrick, a great write-up! Your opinion for an upgrade turbo with this combo:

Current setup:
PT-54
FMIC
Pat's 3400 non-LU
MSD 50s
Razor's alky
Anderson 214/214 roller cam
TT alky chip
LM-1 WB02
MAFT-Pro enroute

Thanks!

Pete

[Rodney87GN]

Originally Posted by RUQWKNF

Thanks for reading.

Patrick

No, thank you! Excellent explanation and I have a better understanding now. My car will be 90% street driven so reliability is important. I plan on doing ported irons, 212/212 roller, 65# injs, and a 6776 BB turbo. I already have Alky and a 3200 stall LU that should work perfect with that turbo.

[turbojimmy]

I switched from a PT-61 to a Turbonetics T70 BB this year. The difference in how quickly it spools is amazing. I drive the car mostly on the street, a few thousand miles a year. I have a '0' pump Vigilante and I'm now thinking there's too much stall (they say it's around 3500, which I guess is pretty close to reality). I need to get some more track time in to determine how much tighter I need to make the converter.

Jim

[RUQWKNF]

Hi Pete.
Honestly with your current setup and the 50's, you are limited to around 600 fwhp on race gas. The alky will help give a little bit of cushion but not much more, possibly another 50hp worth of wiggle room based on others experiences. With that being said, in order to see a really nice bump in power, I would think the PT6176RS would be a nice step up for you and not require 60's. The PT54 will support close to 600 fwhp, but it uses older T series technology on the rotating assembly. Now, if you did upgrade to 60's, technically you could go with a turbo as large as a 70 P-trim. It really comes down to if you want to change injectors and or how fast you want to go? If no on the injectors, I wouldn't go larger than the PT6176RS.
HTH

Patrick

[SouthernCal GN]

I like all that I've read about the 6776 BB setup, and I have no problem going to 60s- the car is a driver that does see track time.

More research I need to do.......before I's opens da wallet once again!

Thanks!

Pete

[Kevin87TurboT]

Patrick,

Could you give us a rundown of what all of the suffixes mean on Precision's turbos? For instance, on the PT6776 there are 6776RE, 6776RH, 6776RHB, 6776RHPS designations. I have one on the way...but all I know is that it's a dual ball bearing 6776 with the 3 bolt Buick flange, 4" compressor inlet, 2.5" compressor outlet, and a .63 A/R. I don't even know what the part number is for this particular turbo. Thanks.
Kevin

[salvageV6]

I upgraded to a Double BB 70 turbo way before Precision acknowledged they even worked on our cars.

If you want good information on all types of BB turbos call Jack Cotton at Cottons Performance in Mass.

Innovative has been building and selling double BB's for a while now too, and of course they are all large shaft rebuildable turbos.

My '0' pump Vigilante stalls about 3000rpm behind my PTE51 turbo on my other car, I don't think they rate that pump at 3500 rpm.

[RUQWKNF]

Be glad to Kevin.
In your case it looks like you might be getting the 6776RS version, which technically would have the official PTE P/N of 400-1551. According to their price sheet on their website.

6776RE = 6776 duall bb turbo with TO4E comp cover (3" inlet, 2" outlet) This one has also been refered to as a GT6776 dbb from other vendors.
6776RS = 6776 dual bb turbo with TO4S comp cover (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
6776RSP = 6776 dual bb turbo with TO4S comp cover with ported shroud (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet)
6776RH = 6776 dual bb turbo with Precisions H comp cover (4' inlet, 3" outlet)
6776RHPS = 6776 dual bb turbo with Precision H comp cover with Ported Shroud (4" inlet, 3" outlet)
6776RHB = 6776 dual bb turbo with Precision H comp cover with a pressed on 6" inlet bell that was not designed to work on stock location mounting for a Buick. The 6" inlet bell will hit the IAC as well as the inlet pipe. You won't be able to plumb an inlet hose to it either without some serious modifications to your IC tubing.

All of these turbos, except for the HB version are available with a Standard Spring wastegate actuator or a Heavy Duty springed wastegate actuator, you must specify when ordering the turbo as they are not included with turbo. You will also need the Buick specific water coolant line kit as well as either running a -4 AN oil feed line, like what comes with the PTE Oil Filtration kit, or one of PTEs Buick specific oil feed lines for stock replacement setup. Note, if you run the stock style Replacement feed line from PTE, you will have to notch your heat shield in order to reinstall it. The turbo comes with a special made restrictor fitting that accepts a female -4 AN fitting equipped line.


When it comes to turbine housing options for Buick applications, there are currently two PTE casted turbine housings to choose from.

THB3-76 = PTE casted .63 A/R three bolt housing with .900 wg hole for P-trim turbine wheel.
THB5-76 = PTE casted .85 A/R three bolt housing with .900 wg hole for P-trim turbine wheel.
Here is a link to MJRWOODs install pics of his PT6776RH turbo, including pics of the water lines.

PT67bb install pics

Hope this helps a little.

Patrick

[Kevin87TurboT]

Patrick,
You officially know some stuff! That is a major help not only with Precision's part number system, but also with which components we need to install our turbos. I'm still running my stock heads and cam for now. How do you think this turbo will work with this stock engine? I'll be doing heads/cam this fall...if not before then. It has stock headers, stock intake/TB, but has an XFI, Dual Nozzle AlkyControl, Cotton's Stretched Stock Location IC, TCI 3200 converter and transmission and probably a bunch more stuff that I've forgotten.

[Adam Connell]

Quit making me want a new turbo! I want the dual bb 6131 so bad and none of ya'll are making it any easier...

[Chrisk]

Great write up! I always like reading what patrick has to say. Very informative.....

[RUQWKNF]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

Kevin, it would work well on your combo. W/O heads and intake or cam, it should take you into the 11.oos without too much hassle. Just don't forget the 60# Mototrons and a hot wired 340.
Yeah, I know what you mean Adam, in my mind, currently there are two turbo choices. And both of them have been said in this post. 6131RE and the 6776RS. But that's just me.
Carry on....

Patrick

[Brer Rabbit]

First off, Precision has us by the b@lls on this kit, because I wanted to plumb it up myself with a braided line but I was unable to find a fitting to work, so I ended up with the kit, spending $100.00 on a 12" 3/8th rubber hose, 4 hose clamps, two fittings and 2 small flimsy lines. The longer line in particular was not thought out very well, because as soon as I installed it, I knew I would have to secure the line to the turbo or eventually it would snap from vibration and constant light pressure from the hose. Im sure theres a bunch of people buying these turbos, so if anyone finds a better way to plumb them please let me know. I really need to change this half @ss setup.

[RUQWKNF]

Brer...
PM sent.

[1BADTT]

Patrick, what if u don't have a/c/heater & lines ?? I there water kit available ?? Thanks...

[wbrophy]

Originally Posted by RUQWKNF

It's been awhile but is that hose from the turbo to the electric control valve on the valve cover on the wrong fitting (top one) or does it really matter which one you use.

[RUQWKNF]

Not exactly sure how you would hook them up without lines, unless you drilled and tapped a fitting into your water pump neck, and the return in your radiator.
PTE only has two water coolant line kits. One is universal banjo fittings with straight steel tubes, the other is Buick specific.

It does look like it's on the wrong fitting.
Hey MJRWOOD? You still have that solenoid hooked up the same as in the pic? Is it working ok?
Curious minds want to know...

[BMF_Racing]

Originally Posted by RUQWKNF

Not exactly sure how you would hook them up without lines, unless you drilled and tapped a fitting into your water pump neck, and the return in your radiator.
PTE only has two water coolant line kits. One is universal banjo fittings with straight steel tubes, the other is Buick specific.

It does look like it's on the wrong fitting.
Hey MJRWOOD? You still have that solenoid hooked up the same as in the pic? Is it working ok?
Curious minds want to know...

???????????????????

[Quiky One]

Another thing to add. The t-netics turbos now require water lines. Another TTA owner had to send his T-netics 61 back and when it returned from Cotton it had water line fittings!

[JCotton]

Originally Posted by Quiky One

Another thing to add. The t-netics turbos now require water lines. Another TTA owner had to send his T-netics 61 back and when it returned from Cotton it had water line fittings!

Wrong...... that is simply a matter of choice, water lines are absolutely not required or needed. If he got it back with a water cooled center section that is only because they were out of the dry center sections. Rather than wait for the dry ones, we just use the wet. A water cooled center section does not mean it has to be watercooled

[turbolou]

Originally Posted by 1BADTT

Patrick, what if u don't have a/c/heater & lines ?? I there water kit available ?? Thanks...

Use the tapped boss on the intake manifold that was intended for the heater pipe as one source. There's some room on the timing cover in the area right behind water pump to tap a 3/8 NPT pipe thread to use as the other. It's then going to take a little imagination to adapt some fittings to complete the job. It would be nice to be able to use the heater hose barb off the water pump but that may be difficult because of the close proximity to the compressor housing.

[d0n_3d]

My PT6776RLHPS (P-trim exhaust, with ported shroud H cover) is the one to blame for splitting my damn stock block! It was making too much power! Just kidding...I split the block because of various reasons but that turbo was badass. I could prowl around on the street and just barely tap the gas and I'd see the boost gauge needle just climb with the gas pedal. Was running a 3200 non lockup Art Carr converter. It hauled @ss up top too. Ran 125 mph on a crappy tune and a stock bottom end!

[Boost231]

Ok i have to ask. Im currently deployed so i cant call around. Can anyone make me a TA-66 BB (dual or single) with a carbon seal backing plate. If so can you please post or PM me. From what i have gathered precision cant get the carbon seal backing plates and i need to have the carbon seal plate for my application since its going to go on a hotair car. i cant run the dynamic seal because the turbo will suck oil. i had a ta49 with the dynamic seal and it sucked oil bad. i currently have a Ta-54 with the carbon seal and its fine so i know i need that type plate. please let me know and thanks for the help.

[2toneWE4]

Patrick,
Where would you buy the TE60-R from or the GT6152? Which one if running stock block, heads and want a lot of street reliability? Almost 100% street-driven

[RUQWKNF]

Precision makes the TE-60R (called the 6031RE) and the PT6152E (6152E). They also make a PT6131RE (6131RE) as well. Any of those will make great power on a stock car. I was impressed with the power of my TE-60R and there is another 20hp over it, if you go with the PT6131RE. Should be no difference in spool up either between the two either as they both use the same turbine wheel. The PT6152E is a regular journal bearing turbo and will need a higher stall converter due to it's larger T350 Stage 5 turbine wheel. (Typically 3200 at zero psi will get the job done nicely) The PT6152E will add other 15 flywheel hp vs the PT6131RE when maxed out. It just depends on how fast you want to go and the parts that you intend to run. These three are very close in power capability and spool up characteristics. Any of the TurboBuick.com supporting vendors who sell PTE turbos can get any of these for you.
HTH

Patrick

[Big Turbo Scott]

Patrick,

Are you aware of any one who could offer compressor maps for any of the above three turbos you mentioned? I am currently looking to replace a standard journal 61. Thanks in advance for your advice on all the above posts.

Scott

[RUQWKNF]

6131RE and 6152E use the same GT35R compressor wheel. It is a 61mm inducer wheel. Here is the map direct from Garretts website.



The 6031RE uses the standard 60-1 compressor wheel, which the map is commonly available from pretty much anyone.
HTH

Patrick

[BEATAV8]

Originally Posted by RUQWKNF

Hey MJRWOOD? You still have that solenoid hooked up the same as in the pic? Is it working ok?
Curious minds want to know...

I noticed that a few months ago when I was diagnosing what turned out to be a leaky boost gauge. Didn't seem to make a difference in boost control, works OK either way but now it's on the proper port. Turbo has been working great all summer. +27PSI and loving it. Note the black paint on the turbine housing has turned grey from miles of fun .

[Chris McDade]

My new turbo from Cotton. BB 66 S trim 3 bolt precision housing. Im going to try to run 3200 stall converter.

[mhogan6]

Nice looking turbo.

[PaCemkr86]

Patrick awesome info... you are the man to go to for info about this stuff.. very impressive..

this should be a sticky thread

here is another route for water cooler your turbo is you dont have a/c or heat

[INTERCOOLED]

Patrick-

I would love some advice on which turbo to put on my new setup. Please take a look at this thread:

Opinions on Wicked Engine Build

Crazy as it sounds, I am just now getting this installed and I still need a turbo.

Thanks in advance.

[DR BOOST]

patrick,

what ever happened to the innovative turbos? i ran one years ago and loved it. it was a 66dbb.


surej