Anyone Make A CAI Kit for TTA

[Jas89TTA]

I was wondering if anyone make a cold air induction kit for the TTA? If not has anyone made one? I noticed on my scanmaster that the air temp coming in is 130+ degrees and wanted to know if there is away to get cooler air into the engine. Thanks, Jason

[Kyle F]

I always see mine at ambiaent Temp once I get moving. Nothing over 105 here at a stop

[slicks]

I made one out of PVC(painted black) and went from 160ish* at the air filter, to 4-6* warmer than ambient in the up-pipe(moved the ats too). Never have saw over 134* in the up-pipe at 20 psi.

[Razor]

The reason is they dont work. In theory they do..in practical..they dont, if anything putting bends in the inlet pipe will slow the car down.

Open K&N will work wonders... if you give it a chance.

[Jas89TTA]

Mine have a K & N Cone Filter with a polished pipe to the inlet, But for some reason the temps are in the 130+ so I figured that it's sucking up all the hot air in the engine compartment. Thanks, Jason

[Razor]

But your only sucking that air while the car is sitting..not going down the road.

hth

Ive track tested it..doesnt work.

[slicks]

Mine was 160 while driving Whatever works for whoever I guess, I could feel the difference with mine though. Picked up about 2 mph at the track too.

[Kyle F]

It should be ambiant temp while driving. Besides the temp in the inlet tub is kinf of negligible with the intercooled turbo. I mean the difference of the inlet temperature and what it is after it passes the turbo will not be very different no matter what you inlet change is, unless you can some up with a 50* os so difference.
The gain in flow is what you want. More air= more power. If you want cooler air into the engine, concentrate on getting the cooler air over the intercooler. That is where you can piuck up more power from denser air.

[Razor]

Originally posted by slicks
Mine was 160 while driving Whatever works for whoever I guess, I could feel the difference with mine though. Picked up about 2 mph at the track too.

Get it to 120 MPH trap speed and you'll be pulling everything off.

Sorry but at 106 mph... Your not making any power. Not enough to ascertain a definite improvement. Get stuck at 112 for like 6 passes..put your ram air on..if it goes to 114 for the next 6 runs.. I do definetely want to know about it.

Do your testing backed up with direct scan data and MPH improvement at the track. Once you meet that criteria, then ... we're talking.

Ive had a clogged K&N cuase my MPH to drop 4 MPH...dont ask how I know this

[postal]

I mean the difference of the inlet temperature and what it is after it passes the turbo will not be very different no matter what you inlet change is, unless you can some up with a 50* os so difference

10 degrees hotter into the turbo will be 10 degrees hotter coming out. ect ect.

I say take as much heat out of the air going into the motor as practical. You got to decide what you consider practical .
Now since our cars are intercooled you should only see a fraction of the temp drop going into the throttle body. Lets say your cold air kit lowers turbo inlet temps 20 degrees. Your intercooler was going to take care of about lets say 14 to 16 degrees of that anyway. So your only going to see a very small temp drop at the actual throttle body. I'll bet what razor is saying about it not working at the track is correct and its because of this.
The only real place I see a CAI kit showing an improvement is on the street. I think if certain criteria where met it could make a improvement for you. Like cruising the main drag at sustained low speeds and heat soaking the intercooler d/t sucking hot air from under hood instead of cool air from outside. Also maybe for tearing up a whindy road where your on and off boost. The CIA kit should alow you to run a little longer before heat soaking your IC.
That all said I made my own CAI kit. I figured WTH, it looks cool, didnt cost me squat, and some time some where It will make my car run a little better.

HTH: Jason

[postal]

Any good at pluging numbers into equations? This link is real good for quantifying how much temperatures effect the amount of air going through our motors.
My personal conclusion from using equations like these is: If you take enough heat out of the compressed air, and run enough boost....Then a stock long block motor should be limited by the same thing as a modified motor(a motor with heads, cam, ect). This limiting factor should be the bottom end of the engine, or the head gaskets. I would THINK that if you took enough heat out then detonation shouldnt be a problem. They say that you can make a good bit of power on the stock bottom end if there isnt any detonation. Hopefully before the sumers up I'll make some more progress with this theory. I have seen enough from my new set up to say I have seen some CRAZY LEAN conditions at high boost and did not have any knock retard showing on my scanmaster. I was so pist I was actually trying to blow the damn thing up a couple of different times. Anyway here is the link:

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA.../turbosize.cfm[/url]


HTH: Jason

[Kyle F]

Actually the air drop at the inlet is not going to change as much as the equation is telling you. This is Ideal... I cant stress that enough. Look right beloe it at adiabatic efficiency. I am sorry to inform you of this, but heat form the turbo housing and impeeler brought on by the heat transfer from the exhaust and under hood temperatures will add to this temperature rise.
Why do I know this... maybe because i spent quarter doing an independent research project in college studying tubine compressors. M test bed was a Turbo attached to an intercooled Dodge Shadow Shelby Edition. We found tha tinlet temp had very little effect on temperatures seen at the Throttle body, but the Temperature diffenece at the Intercooler mad a husge diffenence. So, the the Air Temperatures are much more sensitive to the intercooler temps that inlet temp.
Now, to add to this, each turbo is diffents and will have different heat transfer properties and differen efficieny ratings. So, each will be different. All I can say is install some thermo couples in your tubes and ches the change in Temps.

[postal]

I cant make any sence out of your reply Kyle. Are you saying that the temperature of the air going into the turbo has no effect on the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo?
If your under the impression that I was saying that a CAI kit was going to make a big diff in temps at the throttle body please reread my post because this is what I said:

So your only going to see a very small temp drop at the actual throttle body

also you said:

I am sorry to inform you of this, but heat form the turbo housing and impeeler brought on by the heat transfer from the exhaust and under hood temperatures will add to this temperature rise.

No need to apologize no one died. What kind of temps do compressor housings see? At high boost is the compressor housing hotter or cooler than the compressed air?

you also said:

We found tha tinlet temp had very little effect on temperatures seen at the Throttle body, but the Temperature diffenece at the Intercooler mad a husge diffenence. So, the the Air Temperatures are much more sensitive to the intercooler temps that inlet temp.

Thats why I have alot of money(to me) in a custom liquid intercooler set up. I can hold 10 gallons of ice water in insulated tanks. I run dual: pumps, 1/2" supplies, and 1/2" return lines. On my old set up of running a stretch w/o a scoop, my up pipe to the throttle body would be too hot to touch after a ran. I ran 11.30@118.6 with that set up. On my new set up my up pipe is cool to the touch after a run. Infact its cooler than my CAI pipe. Right now I'm fighting fuel system problems but have already beat my old 1/8th mile times(even though the car is running like crap). I hope to get this fixed soon so I can start trying to tune the new set up.

Jason

[Kyle F]

Originally posted by postal
10 degrees hotter into the turbo will be 10 degrees hotter coming out. ect ect.

I say take as much heat out of the air going into the motor as practical. You got to decide what you consider practical .
Now since our cars are intercooled you should only see a fraction of the temp drop going into the throttle body. Lets say your cold air kit lowers turbo inlet temps 20 degrees. Your intercooler was going to take care of about lets say 14 to 16 degrees of that anyway. So your only going to see a very small temp drop at the actual throttle body. I'll bet what razor is saying about it not working at the track is correct and its because of this.


HTH: Jason

Thgis is pretty much where I disagree. I agree with most of everythign else you said, especially on concentrating on the intercooler.

10Degree drop in is not 10 degrees les after compression (on a car that is running in real life, not on paper). The fact is that the compressor and impeller wheel are hoter than the compressed air due to heat transfer from the exhaust side. The compressed air does not soak up all the heat from the turbo, so as it flows , even at low PSI, this heat moves to the ambiant air as well as the intake air that is being compressed. Cooler air can absorb more heat. Therefore it will take more of the heat form the turbo. I guess a good way of saying it is that the Cold air has more capacity for heat as it flows into the turbo. Once it hits this housing it will soak up a little more than warmer air that is comign in. Meaning there will only be a fraction of a difference post trubo and pre intercooler in Temp.
Now, say we can super cool the air pre turbo. With a kit similar to yours to cool the inlet pipe to sub 40*F, then the air would probably cool the impeller down and the housing. You woul dprobably see temps around only 150* pre intercooler at full boost. Say the interccoler is gettign good air on an 80* day, it would be concievable for the intake air to be aroun 90*F at the Throttle body

[slicks]

Originally posted by Kyle F
Now, say we can super cool the air pre turbo. With a kit similar to yours to cool the inlet pipe to sub 40*F, then the air would probably cool the impeller down and the housing. You woul dprobably see temps around only 150* pre intercooler at full boost. Say the interccoler is gettign good air on an 80* day, it would be concievable for the intake air to be aroun 90*F at the Throttle body

150*???? I doubt it is seeing anything near that. I posted previously I have never seen more than 134* in the up-pipe (6" before the Throttle Body) after a 20 psi 140+ run (I never said 1/4 mile , just 140+; speedo only goes to 140 you know). This was about 67-72* air with the K&N mounted in front of the radiator (my version of a CAI ) I would think Postal's AIT in the up-pipe (or Throttle Body would be a lot lower than mine). No where near 150* ouch!

[postal]

With a kit similar to yours to cool the inlet pipe to sub 40*F, then the air would probably cool the impeller down and the housing

I'm not doing any fancy cooling before the turbo Kyle. Just a ram air/cold air induction. My main cooling is after the turbo with my liquid IC set up. Ive only been to the track twice earlier in the year. I was at BG and ran 7.5x@92 (1/8th) and 11.6x@116(1/4) with the car kicking and bucking going down the track. The very next weekend I went to Michigan and ran 1/8th mile only. I ran 7.15@96.3 with a stumble in the motor(no where near as bad as in BG, but still deff not running right). I havent hardly touched my car since(too busy). I got to get moving on the car again or the year will be gone. I'm going to upgrade my fuel system( I was dropping to 40psi fuel pressure @ 25 psi of boost). Hopefully this will fix the stumble and I can then start trying to tune the car out.

Once I get the car running right I'm going to spend some $$'s on data logging stuff and making the car nicer(its kind of a pig). High on the list of things to do is moving the ATS to the up pipe so I can see what kind of temps I got going into the motor.

Jason

[Kyle F]

Originally posted by postal
I'm going to upgrade my fuel system( I was dropping to 40psi fuel pressure @ 25 psi of boost). Hopefully this will fix the stumble and I can then start trying to tune the car out.

40psi at 25psi of boost How could you get anythign to tune in at that point? OPuch is all I can say

[postal]

Dude you cant tune that at all! I'm pist because the car isnt running right, and its going to take $$'s to fix it. I'm also kind of pumped because if I can run 7.15/96.3 now then she should rock and roll when I get it straightened out. The car runs hard in first, decent in 2nd, and crappy in 3rd and OD. Last time out I yanked a 1.462 sixty foot launching 8 to 10 psi off the foot brake. I had the drivers side front wheel about a foot and a half in the air. So I would say she is deffinately making some ponies while the fuel is still there.

Jason

[Kyle F]

any clue as to why you are loosing fuel in your upper gears?

I have never heard of fule pressure just dissapearing like that. It is usually the same in all gears plus or minus a few PSI, but I am guessing that you should be running around 70Psi at WOT if you are running a base 45 and 1PSi of fuel per PSI of boost.

I would think that if you are running this well with crappy tuning and no fuel, yea when you get it fixed and dialed in you shoulc be kci9cking some major assphault.