ATTENTION!!!! NEW VERSION!! Strengthening The 2004r

[WE4]

Strengthening a 2004R

*Most failures in a 2004R are directly related to three things or three categories:

1) HOT TEMPERATURE KILLS:
Do all you can to keep fluid as cool as possible. Higher stall converters produce more heat so they need more cooling. Biggest cooler that can be installed , should be installed.

2) PRESSURE AND HYDRAULIC CONTROL:
Keep well serviced and valve body modifications (i.e., shift kit) should be installed in any 2004R. The level of control (pressures and line) depends on engine output and driveabiliy options.

3) MECHANICAL LOAD AND FATIGUE:
OK, Someone is always gonna say "Well, that's not how my buddies broke" or " I've never seen one break". So we'll talk in "Tendencies". As we work on and test more 2004R's than most and get more tech calls or e-mails for 2004R's than most, I can tell you, for sure, what "tends" to fail and as to, why. I don't want this to be an advertisement, but I do want you all to know how and why, what parts work and what things do not.

[WE4]

TECH:


*OK, We'll start at the sump. With the acceleration and capabilities of a Turbo car or high horsepower car with weight, they have a tendency to cavitate. Why? The factory did a poor job of pan and filter design. It is uncovered with fluid, easily. Reason we have seen this is poor scavenge.
In other words the pump is sucking and pumping, the converter uses a large amount of fluid, as it is a fluid coupling. Large coolers are used so under hard demand getting the fluid back to the pan is, let's say slow or delayed in returning to pan. Now add in the acceleration "G" force factor and the "little" or "restricted" return becomes important cause the fluid you do have has rolled up the back of the pan uncovering the 1"x 2" hole in the filter. The 700R4 design is better but same problem prevails. 700's have more fluid in the pan over the sump than 2004R's do, and pick up from bottom, so it is less likely to cavitate but it can still occur in 700's also.

OPTIONS:
Ø Pans: Stock pan with 2004R filter, good driver.
Ø Deep Cast Aluminum with 700 filter, better and good for street/strip.
Ø Shallow sheet metal aluminum pan, fluid is always cool and with the new rear pickup & filter design is excellent for street/strip and is only 2 ¾" deep.
Ø Deep sheet metal aluminum pan, again new sump deep in the back of the pan is the
best.
**All tests were done with very sensitive pressure gauges to insure results, the more we moved the sump to the back and bottom, the more consistant and rock solid pressures were found.**


NEXT THE VALVE BODY:
Valve body modifications are modifying or controlling where and how fluid is directed to do what job and when. Shift timing is critical to this transmission, and the more power put to it, the more critical it becomes. This is known as a " shift kit". However, "shift kit" is a trademark of Gil Younger at Transgo. Everybody has a kit--Superior, Art Carr, Level 10, Transgo, B&M, TCI etc... In my opinion and best for the buck was the "Original" Art Carr's High Tech Kit. Simple yet not destroying and worked very well. Sometimes the T/V spring in the kit was a little stiff for the application but in those cases use the stock BRF. As far as drilling the plate, bigger is better is NOT the way to get the results you desire.
Plates are still available new and the performance VB's are getting scarce. Valve body modifications with this trans are very simple and little is needed to be done,to function very well.

CASE:
I have never seen a case break due to sheer power. It's always either externally or internally, inflicted. Decking flat is very important. NEVER, EVER set case down on any surface, without protecting the worm casting face!!!!!! Always make sure surface is FLAT and in good shape. Using solvent or water , a 2X4 board, as a block, will work with wet/dry sand paper, 400 grit, and just go over to assure the surface is flat and has no burrs or divots in aluminum surfaces. Whenever a case is bear and laying around by itself, a pan should always be on it to protect worm casting surfaces.

OUTPUT SHAFT:
I have only seen three twist: Eric Schurtz"s Stage 2 car, 9.59secs. Brian Burnside's Stage 2 car, 9.99 secs, and a truck we converted from a 400 pulling a 30,000 LBS load. So I would say at stock weight (3700 lbs) you are good to 990 or so. Whats been done to improve the output shaft? I called my shaft consultants and they analyzed the shaft. They said that by "process" they could maybe gain 20-25% but after that a new billet piece would need to be made. Nothing further has been done. *Update...We chryoed (froze) an output shaft and currently Eric Shertz has it. We will update as we learn more..

PARK GEAR:
Nothing needed. It's strong and good to whatever. We install a Torrington low drag bearing. But it serves more purpose on lessening parasitic drag on coast than on drive, because under acceleration the planet is trying to drive away from the gear, not into it.

LOW/REVERSE CLUTCHES:
Unless you run a trans brake any good paper lined, name brand clutch will work. With a trans brake I would recommend the Raybestos High Static. They are designed to hold better statically meaning no shift: holding clutch.

LOW PLANET:
No problems but new roller clutch is suggested. I have only seen two sprags fail and they were both slow cars. I have just seen one fail in a BB Buick, but the jury is still out on what actually took place. Those are the only three in a FOOTBRAKE car, I have seen a sprag fail. This is the part that takes the load using the Stage Right or similar style brake . I have never seen a low roller failure with a Bat Brake. This is because a Bat Brake holds the low clutch on thru first gear after load is lessened.

LOW REVERSE CENTER SUPPORT:
This washer, Center Support to Sun Shell, is the most common to fail. PTS installs a roller bearing in the face for more dependability. These are asked for more than any other part they make. Something GM should have done. Running from stock to the nines it's the way to go.

SUN GEAR AND SHELL:
Use stock OEM hardened shell. The Sun Gear and Planets are good to the low 9's.

FRONT PLANET:
Ck for washer side pinion wear. Drill out lube hole to increase lube to bearing and pinions by three or four sizes.

*FORWARD DRUM:
Here is where you get the most debate. Some have broken in the 14 second cars others live in the nines. All I can say is the people of India (where the metals came from for GM) must be some very inconsistent people. 1800 series hi carbon steel is what they were made of. Very close tensile and yield strengths (BAD). Fatigue also plays a factor. Someday hold one up and look at the spline area. All the power runs through that piece. Detonation and traction are what load and unload. When it fails, it is very fast and very violent. Now processes have been tried, hardening, annealing, softening, tigging and cryogentics. All to which have been to no avail. PTS came up with a Billet Drum Shaft and a way to fuse it to the drum and reinforcing the drum during this process. During testing no other "process" passed the 500 ft LB rating. The billet ones went to 1350 ft lbs, and Boeing and a subcontractor to them, did these tests. So numbers can be presented. We also replace the plastic thrust washer with a bearing. Oil and Lube to direct clutches is improved also. Always use hand fit teflon one piece solid teflon rings. Any brand name clutch will do. For hop up, we use Alto Red Eagle cluthes here.(No Kolene steels , stock is fine) *Note: It is not needed but if extra clutch is to be added in this clutch, the front planet ring gear must be cut down and clearenced and top apply pressure plate must be relieved also or driving forward in neutral and bind in reverse will occur. As time goes on metal will appear in the oil also.
Recommended use, 12.0 and under with heavy foot, or in heavy cars such as changeovers.

*DIRECT DRUM:
The direct drum must be within .030 of original diameter. Cannot be bent or heat deformed. DO NOT drill holes in band surface. This does nothing but add problems with band oil, the direct clutches slinging their lube out, and I have even seen them crack from the holes, and distort the actual drum itself.(Like a brake rotor) Weakens them immensly. All steels must slide freely in bore. In ring bore, no ring cavities can be present. One of the most common 2-3 flair symptom is , bore is ring grooved near bottom of drum using cast iron rings. Band surface must be PERFECTLY FLAT, no scores, especially with the use of the new band. Teflon rings are recommended and almost a must.
USE OF MULTI or EXTRA CLUTCH PACKS HIGHLY NOT RECOMMENDED!!!!!
The theory does not work. You will cook them,every time. We have spent countless hours testing theories and clutch materials. With the steels at .090 or thicker in stock form,they work perfect. 6 Clutches with stock steels set to .038-.042 end clearence will work flawless!!!!!! We recommend Alto Red Eagle clutches for stock and hd rebuilds, and Raybestos Blue Plate clutches for street/strip and strip use. ( Again, use of Kolene steels is not recommended. Stock .090 and thicker stock steels are just fine and must be flat.)* Update: Alto is working on a brand new steel for this application. We will keep you posted.
Direct drum good to whenever mid 9's.

BANDS AND RELATED:
We have tried and tested all kinds of bands. The Raybestos Pro Series had the best lining but when pressures started going up, anchors started coming off. The Banco Reline worked very well with a stock design base and red lining. Nothing special done to anchor but only broke one. Borg 210's gave me the best luck but every 15-20 or so one would fail. Anchor most of the time. Then Alto came up with an extra wide band done very nicely and anchor problem is solved. The Alto Red Eagle band (Red,.. no Kevlar) We beat this thing up and not one failure to date!!!
I think Alto hit a home run with this band!!!
As of now,the 300m anchor pin can be purchased with the band.
Recommended in all rebuilds.

BAND ANCHOR PIN:
Again, many have broken and many have not. Available now are 300M material pins, that are .002 larger in the case bore (to take up the slack from stock pin walking) and .004 larger on nipple that actually snaps into the band. They are longer so they can be each custom fit to your case. (Cases are not all perfect and do wear.) Unbreakable.
For the dollar..... install every time at any power level. Cheap insurance.

SERVOS:
A modified GN servo works well up to high to mid 12 sec cars, then the billet one should be used. ( Especially if the wider band is used so that the increased band surface has more apply force) The apply pin should also be modified and made adjustable, so that pin point critical band adjustment can be made.

CENTER SUPPORT:
Another common 2-3 flair is crossleak in center supports. Ring land wear. First of all teflon ring everything and hand fit. Teflon bushing is used in direct drum. All ports are checked for crossleaks. All should do this. For street/strip cars the killer street unit has a large bearing on the center support between drum and center support. The center support is crossed drilled for lube and then polished. A bearing is cut into the front for contact with OD ring gear. Again less parasitic drag. No real strength gain, less drag, less friction.

OVERDRIVE RING GEAR:
The OD ring gear is strong enough to withstand low 11, high 10, even some 9 sec passes. Some of the high horsepower or heavy cars are now breaking these. Also the planet and stock input shafts are now being seen failing. The Billet Drum Shafts and Billet Input Shafts are so strong that the next weakest links are beginning to surface. This question was asked about 2 years ago and now we have some answers. UPDATE... We have modified the spline surface and are in testing now of this improved piece. Together with the NEW Billet splined OD planet , we may have solved this too!!

*3+4 CLUTCH
4th clutch, a 3 clutch piston should be used (2 is stock). A stock cut to .070 will work just fine.
4th gear clutches of any brand will work. We have been using the Alto Red Eagle clutches with very good luck.

OR CLUTCH
No changes needed.Just ck weld at front.
Stock clutches are fine, any stock clutch..in fact the originals work great!!

*OVERDRIVE PLANET:
The OD planet is notorious for cracking the splined pieces and or stripping the splines. This can happen from a 15 sec Olds to a high 9 sec car. This piece is going to need to be addressed to continue to put hard power to these transmissions. I was really hoping someone else would step up and make the OD planet and ring gear, but everyone seems to think that it's a losing effort. It will be the next part addressed by us but I need to gather my bearings before we take on any more. I have two ideas in the works, but right now they are just that, thoughts and ideas, but I do have people on it. Wish another company would get involved. *UPDATE!!!! Mike Kurtz (Century Trans) has stepped in to assist, test , and back this project!! Alright Mike!!! Together, with the NEW Billet splined OD planet , we may have solved this too!! We will keep abreast.

INPUT SHAFT:
The input shaft has a tendency to break in two ways. First is at the planet. Second is at the splines in the converter. There are two designs of input shafts stock. First is the "blind spline" type. With these, the planet splines kinda spline into the bearing journal . The other has a distinct "grove" between splines and journal. The "blind spline" one is stronger but their limit is about 600 ft lbs of torque. Now that's total and or spiking or shocking 600 ft lbs which most high to mid 11 sec Buicks are easily capable of. With T-brk use and real low 11 sec or heavy weight cars, these are a must for reliability. Always use hand fit one piece solid teflon rings.

*PUMP:
There are two stators used. 150 casting is 81-82, and 088 is casting for 83-90. There are 3 pump bodies used : last 3 casting numbers, 149 (81-82), 082 (83-86) and 690 (late86-90). The 150 casting pump stator will only work with the 149 casting pump bodies, and vice versa. The pressure regulator valves will only work with corresponding pumps too. The valve with a solid valve, no hole, will only work in a 150/149 combo. The valve with the hole will only work in the 088 casting stator. If not, severe pressure problems will result. The 088 stator and both the 082 and the 690 pump bodies will interchange.

We will divide this into two parts. The pump body, and the pumpcover or stator.

*PUMP BODY: First, never use a pump body twice unless you are reinstalling the SAME pump rotor,slide,and veins,
that came out of the running trans. If you are going to reuse,modify pump body as will be explained and reinstall. If pump rotor,slide and or body needs to be replaced start with a "refinished" body. The ONLY way to correctly do this is a tideous and time consuming method. First, our experiance has led us to use GM parts EXCLUSIVLY and they must be ordered in sets from them(GM) at the request of the builder. They must be exact to .002. This is how we do it and have been commended on it by GM themselves:

We at PTS Xtreme now offer 4340 Billet pump rotors and slides. To date and 500 sets later, NOT ONE FAILURE!!!!!. However, the only negative side to these parts is they are expensive to make. BUT, no pressure drop hot and NOT ONE FAILURE! The other important thing about these rotors and slides is that we make every one the exact same down to the 1000th thousandth!.
Another PTS Xtreme FIRST!!!!!

Also, We have seen NO GAIN , at all , except in the late 2000 and up 4l60e's, utilizing the 13 vane setup. In fact.... It is actually weaker and someday if you have one in your hand you will see why. We make our 4340 ones 10 vane and that is all that is needed. PERIOD! No myths, no bullshiit.
If you arev to retain the stock material rotor and slide, PLEASE DO NOT USE AFTERMARKET SETS!!!! THEY ARE VERY Inconsistant in size and in material workmanship.
WARNING Will Robinson.... Very important step here.
Use only GM parts ...slide,rotor,veins,all purchased at the same time, all measured at the same time. 10 Vein is more than enough. Reason for increase in vein count, was to try to knock down the pulses or pulsation of the pump. We noticed quite an improvement from 7 to 10 but not much more 10 to 13. We still use the 10. GM actually has 16 different part numbers for slides and rotors. The aftermarket has 1!!!! That should tell you something!!!!

Remove any burrs in slide and rotor. (Yes,even if brand new right out of box is being used,as I have not seen one yet right out of box with no nicks or burrs at all, Not one.) Wet sanding by hand in solvet and sanding edges with 600 or so over GLASS works well.
Wash in hot water and dishsoap and compressed air dry and set aside. The Chrome Moly ring kits have been known to be a little rough too. We wet sand with 600 over glass in solvent the flat edges and then fine wire wheel the circumferance. It is imperitive that the pump rotor and slide are measured very carefully. They MUST be within .002 of the pump cavity depth.
Too loose and line pressure will be low hot, and too tight, rotor and slide could bind, and break rotor, slide,converter neck,or all the forementioned parts. We set them .0013 in the hole, or in the "pocket". The way this is done is, the face is cut, or surfaced. Then another tool bit comes in and with the premeasured rotor and slide thickness', cuts it to .0013 clearence. This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! . The CNC mill then cuts the relieve groove in front to allow more drainback behind seal relieving pressure on seal. (On the 690 pump bodies , Gm did this. On the 082, 149 pump bodies they need to be modified.)
All are done on a CNC machine. That is how they were done originally, and this is the way it should be done now. If you have a good pump body and have the ability to measure it to the thousandth, you could play rotor roulette and get your calipers out and measure 50 slides and rotors before you get two that would fit, PERFECTLY. AND, you could probobly pull it of, but it is not exact. And........another point or intrest would be...... the aftermarket ( parts co's) gives a tolerence of .7071-7076 which is six thousandths and the tolerence for the pump is two thousandths, THIS WILL NOT WORK!!!! It will be either too loose or too tight. See the problem with aftermarket 10 and 13 vein swaps? Now, all the 13 vein rotors and slides I have seen are all on the thicker side of the scale so most will bind when hot if not properly clearenced.
Ok, now we modify the pump return hole by drilling it to 9/64ths. From both directions.
In pump bushing bore the 690 pump bodies have a "step" at which the bushing seats against when installed. The 082, 149 bodies do not, so we mill a slot on three sides of bushing bore 1/4 inch down. After red loctiting the teflon coated bushing, press in hole with arbor press and bushing driver. Then , "peen" the bushing or "stake" the bushing into the milled flats. Flip over , and press in red loctited seal into seal bore. Assemble all pump rotor parts in , of all things, Cam shaft install lube. The red stuff.

*PUMP STATOR:
A hardned stator should always be installed. But there is a correct way to do this and a hacker way to do this. We will discuss the correct way and if anything varies from this it would fall into the other catagory.
Remove bolts from old stator. PRESS out with a press, not with a hammer by beating on. If the stator just falls out when pressed against a bench, ck bore closely for damage, and or walking. Now to install stator red loctite the base surface. Clean the bore cavity real well. Use dowel pins to guide as you press it in . DO NOT BEAT IN WITH HAMMER!!!! after presed in,replace screws with a drop of loctite and reinstall.Stator Guide pin is also OD clutch washer lube. Drill feed hole .040 for feed to washer.Drill seal return hole 9/32 as well. Now after stator has been pressed in , chuck it up in lathe and ck for the stator to be perpendicular to the pump surface. I only see 1 in 20 that is actually perfectly straight...1-20!!!!!!!!!! So then to resurface perpendicular to the stator, we must "parrell deck" meaning you cut the back side of pump , then bring carriage around and cut the front side without moving material being machined, so everything is cut to center....... meaning the stator is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the pump surface. Not doing this is a big cause for front pump failure as if it is not performed,they are fighting center all the time and will eventually bind in cavity. End result,premature pump failure.
Now installing valves and pump blow off.
The use of either a stock pr valve or the slightly modified aftermarket ones are fine. The pressure reg spring should be a little stronger but the stock one is just fine. The 1-2 int boost valve is available in both .300 and .400 sizes for 1-2 and reverse line boost pressure rise. We recommend the .400. The .500 tv boost valve is also recommended with a 5.46 TV boost valve in the works.(More on this to come late spring.) We now even make a 5.70 TV pump boost valve. Polish lock up valve and reinstall cking the lock up valve springs for rust or fatigue.


*GOVERNOR:
The governor spring should be pinned in. We recommend the setscrew method. Weights should be cked for free movement and ck balls cked for rust and/or debris.Ck teeth on speedo drive.

[WE4]

Well, this is just one opinion. There will be builders and owners that have had better luck and guys that have had worse luck. There will be people who say, "I have never seen that" or "I did it before that point." Like I said in the beginning I said "tendencies". The original quality and consistency of the parts used is broad. Some of this is not law but a recommendation or guideline. Methods such as the pump refinishing is law.(The ones marked with an *) No matter what soft parts and band clearences are used , these tasks should be performed as mentioned. However I do feel that if you can reduce the likeliness of a problem and maybe overbuild to avoid having troubles down the road, why not? Money? How much to repair a transmission when it fails? Just an opinion. So if you want to lock the converter and or put some reliable power through a 2004R, this is pretty close as to what you have to do to make it live

[RobV6]

Wanted to thank you for the effort and time to do this amazing. Educational writing on our 200r's Transmission.

Must have taken a lot of work. I got 9 pages of print!

Just wanted to thank you. I learned and will re-read,
SO MUCH!!!

Again my appreciation.

Robert form NY.

[Joe 1320]

Thanks..... now I'll have to spend the next few years learning how to apply all this tech info. Now I know how much that I really don't know about the transmission.

[Ted A.]

So in a nutshell, what will the 200r4 live through these days? E.T. and MPH for average weight TR.

I am having a 2004r rebuilt for my GN, not originally from a GN, but not sure what from. I am told the tranny is "stock." What can I tell the shop to add specifically to beef up the transmission? Specific parts? Is there a list of upgrades that I can supply them with to ensure I get a STRONG rebuilt 2004r?

Thanks in advance,

B

[HOTTOGO]

I think I found a typo in your "master peice" for the front pump drain back hole you say to enlarge it to"9/64" not sure if you meant 19/64 or 9/32 but for that one poor soul that may think "well the hole is already larger than that" and then just leaves it, and develops a leak and says I did everything it said. Anyway approx. a 1/4-5/16 right?

[WE4]

Tanks.....!

[1985GN]

is there a book or a web page where it could show diagrams and have info on redoing trannys? and a trouble shoting section wiht some problem solving. any info would be great.

[Two Lane]

Great question, Ted...Are you still waiting for an answer?

[78oldscutlass]

I dont know of any website, but I used an ATRA book that I bought from my local tranny rebuilder. It has troubleshooting sections, TSB's and wonderful info and Pics. Bruce is da man, so id like to see his answer too.

Edit:// I think having a troubleshooting page is a excellent idea.

[HOTTOGO]

If your looking for info on the 2004r, your at the best site on the web for info. As far as I know from searching there aren't any that actually give you a step-by-step breakdown of rebuilding or diagnosing them, but if you do a search on this board and http://www.gnttype.org you will find just about everthing you need to know.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/tran.../200rebld.html

[RobV6]

Does anyone near NY....Do this kind of work.

Seems to me that evryone is looking at various times for the same thing.....You know Turbos,trannys, hardest thing is to know someone who knows....Just a thought

[RobV6]

Thanks for the education. Guess I will have to do some diging.

About to call my friend up to start a motor. Was trying to get a handle on tranny. It's what I know least about.

So I'm trying.........Thanks again