Converter Efficiency

[Marc87GN]

I raced a modified EVO tonight and lost the first 2 races and one the 3rd. I'm on street tires so after spinning all of 1st & 2nd, it finally hooked in 3rd and when I was catching up to the EVO, it shifted into 4th and started to knock. The 2nd race was the same, but the 3rd race I put it in drive and pulled him especially when the converter locked.

Anyway, I datalogged all of this on turbolink and discovered that the converter slips like crazy when not locked. The transmission shifts great and firm, but the converter is slipping like mad. I used a gear calculator for each shift point and found the converter is slipping about 25-28%. I always knew that this was the case, but never how much. The shifts are around 5500-5600 which is fine for my setup, but it's happening at a low mph IMO. At 95 mph in 3rd, I'm at 5500-5600 rpms, but when locked, I can go up to almost 125 mph at that same rpm. That's a significant difference.

I have a Protorque that I bought from Chris a few months ago waiting to go in because this converter, I feel, is hurting my performance by not putting the power to the ground. I'm afraid to lock it too early because then it might be too much. A litte slip for multiplication is a good thing, but this thing is killing me. I hope the 10.5" Protorque is more efficient under load and unlocked. Any thoughts on converter efficiency in 3rd gear unlocked is greatly appreciated.

[bird]

what s your rpm drop between shifts, at what boost?

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by bird

what s your rpm drop between shifts, at what boost?

I'm running about 18-20 psi and the rpm drop on the 2-3 is about 400 rpms. I'm sure If I play with the locking points enough, I can make it work, but it seems very inefficient up top until it locks to me. I had 5 different converters in my turbocharged 99 GT and the Protorque 10.5" seemed to be the most efficient an offered the best balance IMO. This was until the PI Multi-disc, but with gears in the back, I locked it up at 40 mph in 2nd. With 3.42s in the GN, I would think it would kill the ET, but would make for a good trap if i locked it that early.

[dollar_bill]

Read around,tons of guys say the 9/11 is a very unefficent convertor unlocked.Try manually locking it when it shifts 3rd and tell us what you think...

[bird]

im running an a/c non l/u. i get about 600-700 rpm drop at 20 psi, and about 300-400 rpm drop at 30 psi. trans shifts itself at about 5700-5800 rpm. i come through the traps at about 6200 rpm at 137 mph in 3rd. thats about 9-10% slip. im not a big fan of the lock ups. your convertor is definately on the loose side. try the new one out.

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by bird

im running an a/c non l/u. i get about 600-700 rpm drop at 20 psi, and about 300-400 rpm drop at 30 psi. trans shifts itself at about 5700-5800 rpm. i come through the traps at about 6200 rpm at 137 mph in 3rd. thats about 9-10% slip. im not a big fan of the lock ups. your convertor is definately on the loose side. try the new one out.

Damn, I like your Sig. I'm definitely going to try the Protorque and see if that helps. I have locked the converter using the Extender at various speeds and there is a very big difference in pull. My unscientific feeling is this, if you feel the lockup that hard under full throttle, the converter was slipping alot unlocked. If you barely feel it when it locks, chances are, the converter is very efficient. This is provided the clutches are in good shape and not slipping. Just a thought.

[DonnieShort]

Didn't see what converter you were running, the one slipping.

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by DonnieShort

Didn't see what converter you were running, the one slipping.

I bought it used with approx 500 miles (per the previous owner). It's this converter and he didn't like it either. Should have bought a proven converter, but I took a short cut which is a bit out of character for me. Anyway, here it is. The boost comes up like mad in 1st or 2nd and kills the tires at speeds under about 45 mph, but it slips bad IMO at the top of 2nd and worse in 3rd unlocked. Locked in 3rd, it pulls well. I guess i'm just looking for a little better balance in-between.

#5X. " Extreme Duty Power Raptor Lock-up " Fits 200-4R transmissions. This is a 9 1/2 inch converter with a 12 inch lock-up carbon fiber clutch rated up to 700 horse power. Can be ordered in stall speeds of 2000 to 4000 RPM. We stock 2600, 2800, 3000 and 3200. Lower 60 foot times and improved quarter mile times, an average of 1/2 second reduction! This torque converter has a torque multiplication rate of 2.5. The Ultimate Top of the Line Lock-Up Converter. Cost $560.00

[DonnieShort]

Sounds like it's not a very good one.

Did you say that you had a Vigilante multi disc or was that in the Mustang?
I've got the Vigilante multi disc "6" pump in my car. When it locks up, hang on. Like an afterburner or something, pretty awesome! Good luck!

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by DonnieShort

Sounds like it's not a very good one.

Did you say that you had a Vigilante multi disc or was that in the Mustang?
I've got the Vigilante multi disc "6" pump in my car. When it locks up, hang on. Like an afterburner or something, pretty awesome! Good luck!

I had one in my Mustang after I killed the clutch in a Protorque and a PI single disc. I agree because when I switched to that converter, I picked up 4 mph when locked and just under 26 mph in the 2nd 8th. Now I have a 3200 stall Protorque sitting in the trunk waiting to go in. I guess it pays to get something proven unless a person enjoys pulling the transmission on a regular basis.

[Russ Merritt]

Before everyone convicts the 9/11 as a ineffecient converter and that they are all bad.....


I run a PTS Billet 9/11. I had a non lock-up 3200 Vigilante in the car before (I think we all agree they are pretty effecient?) The 9/11 went just as fast as the Vig in the 1/4, 128mph unlocked, then with the 9/11 locked at the end of 3rd went 131/132mph. I'm pretty glad to have had the 2 in there in the same car/motor combo.


Mark, maybe something is wrong with the converter. Are you sure it's a 3K stall? I wouldn't convict the converter so quickly with it being used and who knows where it's been/done. Good luck with the new Pro Torque. Hope it's what your looking for.

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by Russ Merritt

Before everyone convicts the 9/11 as a ineffecient converter and that they are all bad.....


I run a PTS Billet 9/11. I had a non lock-up 3200 Vigilante in the car before (I think we all agree they are pretty effecient?) The 9/11 went just as fast as the Vig in the 1/4, 128mph unlocked, then with the 9/11 locked at the end of 3rd went 131/132mph. I'm pretty glad to have had the 2 in there in the same car/motor combo.


Mark, maybe something is wrong with the converter. Are you sure it's a 3K stall? I wouldn't convict the converter so quickly with it being used and who knows where it's been/done. Good luck with the new Pro Torque. Hope it's what your looking for.

You make a good point. Maybe I will bring it over to ProTorque since they are about 15 minutes away and have Joe go through it and freshen it up. I would do this anyway to make sure it's in the best shape before I would sell it to a fellow TR owner.

[Russ Merritt]

Originally Posted by Marc87GN

You make a good point. Maybe I will bring it over to ProTorque since they are about 15 minutes away and have Joe go through it and freshen it up. I would do this anyway to make sure it's in the best shape before I would sell it to a fellow TR owner.

Great idea although I would send it back to where it was born/raised....... Pro Torque doesn't make 9/11s and it might not get the "love" it requires......


Be like sendin a New York Yankee to practice with the Red Sox, or vice/versa. Know what I mean?


Best of luck.

[DonnieShort]

The PTS 9/11's are the good ones. The Raptor or Raptoid or whatever it is would be a little suspect, if that's the one he has. I've seen those on Ebay. Always wondered if they were any good. I guess now we know If I had to buy a converter today it would either be a PTS or Precision.

[Marc87GN]

I set up the Extender to lockup the converter at 53 mph and what a world of difference. I punched the throttle from a 40 mph roll and ran the car up to 127 mph in 3rd. I had about 2.1 and 1.1 degrees of knock around 74-86 mph, but was 0.0 up until 127 mph from 86 mph. At 127 mph, the rpms were 5950 and 5675 @ 122 mph. I was very pleased with the way the car pulled and it felt strong all the way up with the boost around 19-20 psi. This is on straight 93 octane. If it were not for the knock at 74 mph and 86 mph, it would have been the perfect pass. O2s were in the 852-870 range. The converter may not last this way, but the car felt great.

[Russ Merritt]

That's one of the many great things with an Extender chip. User programmed lock-up...... I'd leave that converter in and test more. Your not makin 700 hp, it might surprise you how long/much it will take.... Lock-up is a wonderful thing.....

[Marc87GN]

Originally Posted by Russ Merritt

That's one of the many great things with an Extender chip. User programmed lock-up...... I'd leave that converter in and test more. Your not makin 700 hp, it might surprise you how long/much it will take.... Lock-up is a wonderful thing.....

I agree and will put it on the dyno soon to see where it is and then hit the track. It felt like the converter slipped a little or the transmission for those 2 brief moments causing the knock, but after that, she was all good until I got out of it. Also my tires are only 25.64" 245/50/16 high. I might squeeze a few more mph out with the BFG D/Rs at 26" tall. Lockup definitely is a wonderful thing.

[Pronto]

Russ, do you trust locking up a stock d5 at WOT and at what speed/gear would you do it?

[Russ Merritt]

You have a 700R4 lock-up solenoid in there I hope? BIG dif between the 200 and 700 in performance.


I bet it was the trans slippin 2/3 shift.