Fastest v6

[DonWG]

What's the range on your lambda instrument?

[turbodragster]

we run about 22 to 23 degrees of timing and have run 45 lbs of boost. we have no intercooler. we did try spraying the fuel in the intake tubs to cool the charge but saw no difference. we have played with blower motors in the past and starting line temp means allot about how the car will run.

[BlownV6]

Donnie, Turbo dragster switched from gas with intercoolers to alchy without intercoolers last year. His control system measured in stoch?? Sorry im an idiot reguarding these things. His new system will be capable of reading in A/F ratio and Im sure he will share his setup with us. He has ties to the Titan toyota group and thus knows some of what they are doing and should help him with his tuneup!! HOPE I STATED THIS CORRECTLY correct me if im wrong.
Being super charged with a roots blower I am not intercooled either. My intake temps on an 75 degree day will be 80-90 degrees at 60' and continuiously rise to around 140-150 degrees at 660'. I have mechanical
fuel injection and a locked timing system. Increasing the timing makes huge gains in ET but doesnt help much with MPH. Im quite sure the timing is killing
some of the speed. My racepak is on its way back to me with A/F system installed and I have a timer controlled retard system on the way also. If I get my connecting rod issue straightened out and get some new rods built
in time I will get to play again this year. Right now Im rodless!!! My boost is basically 40# at 10' and goes up to 50# at 7800 rpm Mike

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by turbodragster

we run about 22 to 23 degrees of timing and have run 45 lbs of boost. we have no intercooler. we did try spraying the fuel in the intake tubs to cool the charge but saw no difference. we have played with blower motors in the past and starting line temp means allot about how the car will run.

Your timing looks good for peak level cylinder pressures (peak torque). If you have to go any less than that, you have a mixture problem. Of course, as the engine runs through its rpm band cylinder pressure levels will vary. Fixed timing is an elephant from the past (lazy mans tuning). If a timing curve system is available to you, you should be taking advantage of it. Fixed timing is a compromise. It is usually set to take care of the timing needs for a particular rpm range (a very narrow one). All other areas will be less than optimum.

Idle will be much happier with a little more timing.

A/F will usually be leaned out and timing will slightly increase after peak torque is past. This may or may not be true in your case. Every methanol engine is its own animal. Be careful taking advice from the Toyota camp. What works on their engines may not transfer over to yours.

I'm going to say this again. And its very important that it sinks in. 'Every methanol engine configuration is its own animal.' What works for one, may be totally wrong for another.

Spraying the extra fuel may not have increased power, but it may be, at least, moving your mixture from being dangerously close to an auto-ignition state. Keep in mind. Methanol fueled engines always go the fastest, right before they go boom! You should have increased your fuel until you started seeing a drop in performance or you noticed raw fuel out the exhaust. That will establish your tuning window.

Your correct about starting temps at the line. This is very important with a methanol engine. If your tuneup is less than safe, you don't want to be hot at the line. If your tuneup has a safe cushion, you will want to be hotter at the start. My best times are usually done when I get caught in the water box waiting for the person from the previous pass to pickup his chute and get off the track. This would be a coolant temp of 180F. Of course, at this point, my tuneup is relatively safe. The difference in power from having a hotter engine at the start of the run is because I've changed the vaporization synchronization or curve that the fuel will go through as it passes through the 4 cycles in the engine.

It all comes down to controlling the intake charge temp (starting temp), rate and amount of vaporization throughout the 4 cycles of the engine.

The rate of vaporization throughout the 4 cycles of the engine, along with the amount of fuel available for vaporization and the quality of vaporization from the start of the process will change with differing tuneups, and engine, and fuel system layouts. Just the fact that someone decided to use heat barrier coatings on just their pistons can change this very important synchronization of vaporization with the 4 engine cycles.

As the mixture is compressed, the mixture is heated.
The heat from compression helps to vaporize the mixture. How quickly and how much of the mixture that vaporizes is important.
As the mixture vaporizes, it absorbs heat and helps control the temperature of the mixture. It's important that the mixture never rises to auto-ignition temperatures during this phase. If more fuel is needed to provide more vaporization and hence temperature control, then more is added. And yes, sometimes at the expense of power. Aftercooling will help lessen the level of extra fuel that would otherwise be used for mixture cooling purposes alone.

Depending on the engine (different animals again), it may be necessary to have enough un-vaporized fuel available during early stages of the power stroke (early and critical phase of ignition) to control mixture temperature and combustion flame speed.

Fuel injector location is just one of the many variables that will have much to do with the required bsfc of the engine.
Fuel injector location will have much to do with the initial state of vaporization of the fuel before it passes the intake valve.
Fuel injector location will have much to do with the density value of the air as it passes through the intake port.
Intake port volume will have much to do with the air velocity through the intake port, which will have much to do with the vaporization level of the mixture before the intake valve.

With methanol its vaporization cycle and synchronization, vaporization cycle and synchronization, vaporization cycle of the fuel and synchronization to the 4 cycles of the engine. And everything has an effect on it. Even the smallest tuning change.

Theoretically, it's possible to tune a methanol engine to the point that the fuel is detonating at just the right point to achieve maximum pressure rise at just the right point in crankshaft rotation. This is something that is normally stumbled upon and not tuned for. The engine components would have to be able to withstand the quick pressure rise also.

There really is so much more to this. I hope I did a good job of summarizing it for you. Good food for thought?

Happy methanol tuning to all!

[DCVING 6]

BlownV6,

Any pictures of the car, sounds interesting?

dcving6@aol.com

[DonWG]

BlownV6,
I hope the last post gave you some food for thought. Especially about the timing. Where are you measuring the intake air temp? Before fuel is added or after? Between?
Those temps sound too good for 50 psi with a blower. Is some fuel injected before blower and some after? If so, what's the ratio of fuel before and after? Where is the fuel being injected after blower? Valve pocket? Port entry?

A target a/f ratio for you guys with high boost and without aftercoolers should be in the low to mid 3 to ones at full load to start with. Then work toward leaner to find your lean limit. That will usually be where the power increases start to level off or you break parts. Once you've found that limit, hopefully before you've broke any parts, go back to the ratio you started with (low to mid 3s) and work rich, until the engine becomes sluggish or raw fuel is blowing out the exhaust. That will be your rich limit. You should end up with a 30% tuning window. Go to the middle and leave it alone. Timing is going to have a small part to play in the overall scheme. don't go crazy with it. I know the old school guys are going to tell you stories about how they locked out their timing at 50 degrees. Don't listen to that junk. It doesn't work with our engines.

[turbodragster]

we are looking for 3.8 a/f to start but have seen 4.0 as ok on allot of combinations of course the plug is the ultimate gage of cylinder temp so we are going to start soft then see what the plugs look like .

[BlownV6]

My computer blew up about a month ago and I lost all my pics (sorry) But here is a couple I just took of the hat, blower & manifold. This will give you idea how the fuel system is plumbed up. About 60% of the total amount of fuel going into the engine is in the hat which helps cool and lubricate the blower. The port nozzles suppy the remaining 40% and help balance the EGT's . I measure the intake temp in the plenium of the manifold. Mike

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by turbodragster

we are looking for 3.8 a/f to start but have seen 4.0 as ok on allot of combinations of course the plug is the ultimate gage of cylinder temp so we are going to start soft then see what the plugs look like .

How many threads do you look for on the plug reading.
What a/f seems to get you in trouble on the lean side.
What's your target EGT?

[DonWG]

Blown V6. Wow. Too pretty.
For comparison, I'm seeing 149F in the up pipe after the intercooler, at the 660 before any fuel is added. 29-31 psi boost. I'll have to get you the EGT later.

Are you doing any lean out on the top end? High speed bypass?

[BlownV6]

Donnie, I had 2 hi-speeds on it but they were both actually open on the starting line. Im also putting 3 hi-speeds with a provision for the 4th one on it for this year. Hopefully with the A/F I can get the mixture somewhere close
to 4 to 1. One problem I see is the A/f only is supposed to read down to 3.76
so Im probably going to be fighting with the unknown for a bit??
My EGTs have been everywhere from 850 to 1380. Seems to like it around 1100 at the 660". I would have to fatten it up to run 1/4 mile. Mike

[DonWG]

1100 on the EGT sounds good.
My fuel delivery goes flat line at around 4900 rpm and 232 kPa. It does cause a lean out with rpm and boost. And she likes it too. That may have to change with more boost.

I understand what you mean on the a/f reading. You may want to try out the region below that 3.7. You may not find anymore HP there, but that may be your safe area.

My a/f is ranging from 4.5 (start of lean out) to 4.75 (end of lean out) to one. I'm aftercooling though. When I start going up with the boost, that ratio will be going richer I'm sure or my aftercooler tank will be larger and iced to the max.

I appreciate the feed back of your setups. I hope the specs from my tuneup are helping you guys out. I'm pretty sure some, if not all of it, is useless for your setups, but it allows us all to get a better idea of how the methanol tuneup can be so different for different methanol engine configurations.

Ignition timing is 28 through 32 depending on rpm mainly. 28 closer to peak torque and ramping to 32 by max rpm. Idles at 32, 33. 40 at mid to high rpm/no load region. The ignition table is still basically my startup table. I have yet to seriously start playing with the timing table. Every thing is running so well now, I may just leave well enough alone.

I'm giving out this information to give others food for thought. This will make more sense to those that already have some experience burning methanol. It is by no means meant to be a start up tuneup for anyone who may be wanting to switch to methanol fuel. As I stated in an earlier post, 'every methanol engine is its own animal' and the proper tuneup for each can be just as individual.

[turbodragster]

i got all the pics you sent6 me of your car mike i can e-mail them to you but here are some for everyone thats want to see some top notch fabrication.

[turbodragster]

we are looking to not even start burning threads on the plug we are looking to burn the strap and most of the face but thats for the time being we never weree able to read air/ fuel low enough till just now. b ut qwe would flate line .62 lamb. then try to read plugs. the new xfi we feel is going to give us a big help in getting tune better

[turbodragster]

heres the new shop mike

[LV GN]

have a close up photo of your motor?

[BlownV6]

Thanks for posting my pics!!! Send them back to me an I will save them on a disc. Im ready to come down there and watch you test!!! Expecting 10-12" of snow today/tomorrow . Ive had enough!!!!
BTW nice shop Im jealous, and I like the 6 decal. I need to put one on mine,
and my trailer , where did you get it ?? Mike

[SGRIM]

That is an awesome setup!

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by turbodragster

we are looking to not even start burning threads on the plug we are looking to burn the strap and most of the face but thats for the time being we never weree able to read air/ fuel low enough till just now. b ut qwe would flate line .62 lamb. then try to read plugs. the new xfi we feel is going to give us a big help in getting tune better

That sounds good. I'm coloring halfway back on a full standard ground strap and the full face and a little into the first thread. I'm using the hottest heat range for the type plug. Iridium. I'm still using waste spark ignition with a lot of cam overlap.

How much of the XFI system are you using? Total engine control? Timing and fuel? If so, you will love it. No more limitations.

Blown V6. The dragster looks cool!
Turbodragster. Post some recent pics.

[quickt]

Originally Posted by SGRIM

This is what it does with the off center that is in it now

VIDEO!!!

Hi Shane