Modify 109 Block?

sumnerw · #1 (**permalink**) February 10th, 2003, 12:16 AM

Is it possible/practical to modify a 109 block to accept Stage 2 heads? Is it as simple as drilling and tapping the two extra holes per cylinder? Anybody done it?

Thanks,
Sumner (Buzz) White in Houston, TX (sumnerw@flash.net)

qwknuf6 · #2 (**permalink**) February 10th, 2003, 12:27 AM

stage 2 heads could be bolted on a stock block

There is not enough meat on the 109block to drill for the extra head bolts

Trbobuick · #3 (**permalink**) February 10th, 2003, 09:09 AM

The power levels that a s2 head can produce are greater than even a girdled stock block can handle.

sumnerw · #4 (**permalink**) February 11th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Thanks, gents! I figured it wasn't that easy otherwise everyone would be doing it, right?

So how much HP do you think I can safely squeeze out of my 109 if I cap and girdle it? I'm kind of thinking around 700 as a target.

As for the Stage II heads, I was looking for more clamping (although more HP is always a nice side effect). I'm not the world's best tuner and I keep lifting the P/S head and blowing coolant into the lifter galley by 2. I figured that another bolt right there would reduce the odds of it happening again. I suppose I could try stacked steel gaskets and give up on the stock head gaskets. The fire ring holds fine but the graphite around the water passages doesn't. I suppose I'd better have the head and deck checked for warping, now that I think about it.

I managed to go 140k after GM put the head on before I blew it the first time but I've blown it two more times in the last 5k. Now I've got at least one rod knocking so its time for a complete overhaul.

Later,
Buzz

jastrckl · #5 (**permalink**) February 16th, 2003, 05:45 PM

I think kendall was planning on building a beast of a 109, stage headed. he was going to weld on some bits to use the extra bolt holes, and reinforce the hell out of the block. girdled and all that, but I have no idea what else he was planning on doing to keep it together. he wouldn't tell me, thought I was too stupid. he's probably right

KendallF · #6 (**permalink**) February 16th, 2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jastrckl
I think kendall was planning on building a beast of a 109, stage headed. he was going to weld on some bits to use the extra bolt holes, and reinforce the hell out of the block. girdled and all that, but I have no idea what else he was planning on doing to keep it together. he wouldn't tell me, thought I was too stupid. he's probably right

I haven't got any serious plans to build such a motor..I think it'd be fun to try though. It wouldn't make any sort of economic or racing sense; you'd have to have a lot of time on your hands and a good machine shop to play in.

Scott231 · #7 (**permalink**) February 17th, 2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KendallF
you'd have to have a lot of time on your hands and a good machine shop to play in.

And $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

GRNDNL · #8 (**permalink**) February 17th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Would make an interesting TSM motor....

Scott231 · #9 (**permalink**) February 17th, 2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GRNDNL
Would make an interesting TSM motor....

Yeah, Lonnie and I thought someone might think this up.

However, it would be declared illegal as it uses more than the stock 8-bolts per head. I won't add the language to the rules as they are long enough...and nobody is foolish enough to do this anyway.

Scott231 · #10 (**permalink**) February 18th, 2003, 11:50 AM

And don't forget the stated #1 rule:

A factory stock appearing part is a GM part that came on a 1981 to 1987 Buick Regal, GNX, Grand National, T-Type or Turbo Regal from Buick Motor Division and is externally stock in appearance. No external welding, cold weld epoxy, puttying, etc. may be done on any factory stock appearing part unless specifically stated. (emphasis added)

A block that has been welded on, would fail the Factory Stock Appearing test.

But yeah, that would be killer!

GRNDNL · #11 (**permalink**) February 18th, 2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott231
But yeah, that would be killer!

Killer..Ya..Sure..

Rule #2, all Stage 2 headed stock blocks must have oil pan Restraints and Diapers.

So, If one was to use 8 head bolts, do no external mods to the block and take the Al. Head weight break....Hmm...I'll just be quiet now..

John Wilde · #12 (**permalink**) February 18th, 2003, 03:04 PM

Somebody is working on this.
Sounds like it will be a waste of his time now.

John Wilde · #13 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2003, 09:30 PM

The person I was talking about was trying to use
all 14 bolts of a stage 1 type head on a stock block.
This could be interesting.

sinister · #14 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2003, 11:42 PM

HMMMMMMMMM I've got the same idea in mind I have some brand new stage 2 heads and a std block. Ken and I were looking at trying them on a moter I'm building for myself. As far as the diper, I have one from a fuel motor we service. As far as the machine shop.... ADC Racing Engines is my shop. Well will see....?????????

TurboCrazy · #15 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2003, 08:52 PM

If memory serves me correctly, this whole exercise was accomplished by
a guy(wish I cuold remember his name) back in '89-'90, using 8 head bolts.
It was featured in a magazine. I think I still have the article, just can't seem
to find it. It sure was interesting, but didn't seem worth it for all the trial and
error and effort he went through.

.02 worth

Scott231 · #16 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2003, 10:48 PM

Please note, that just because the use of more than 8 head bolts per head is illegal in TSM doesn't mean that someone couldn't offer to the public the service to modify the block and/or some other device(s) to use the extra bolt holes on the non-production heads. This could be the killer-app needed to take stock blocks to the next level (i.e. 9.80s and stay together for a season or two).

sinister · #17 (**permalink**) February 21st, 2003, 11:28 AM

Scott, Give me a idea on what you are after.... I have a few ideas myself and I think it can be done without alot of pain.... I own ADC Racing Engines and have all the "toys" to ge it done. Check us out at www.adc-racing.com We are doing a engine for Ken Moser (oopps I name dropped, good thing I did'nt hit my toe) and it seems to be a good deal... Thanks Charlie Sikes

Scott231 · #18 (**permalink**) February 25th, 2003, 10:26 PM

Well, when Lonnie and I setup the rules, we came to the conclusion that no cylinder heads could be used that had more than 8 cylinder head bolts...which I intially thought simply meant no Stage 2 cylinder heads. But Lonnie quickly pointed out that the GN-1s could be had in 14-bolt pattern and affixed to a 8-boltholed stock block. So we knew there was this loophole and were fine with it. (Both Jason Cramer and Louie Lopez ran 14-bolt GN-1s on a stock block utilizing only 8 head bolts per head which is, was and was intended to be legal).

I didn't think anyone would serioulsy consider modifying the 109 block to use more than the 8-bolts per head and saw no reason to add this additional language to the rules. (They are long enough aren't they?

)

Are people saying this rule (no more than 8-headbolts per head)needs to be stated in the list of rules?

P.S. I am glad the question is being asked as I don't want any misunderstandings.

quickt · #19 (**permalink**) February 25th, 2003, 10:41 PM

If someone is slick enough to add the extra head bolts to the 109 block let them run it. I would just like to se how it was done myself.

Kip · #20 (**permalink**) February 25th, 2003, 11:08 PM

When rules don't contain the language that is called "grey area" and every racer knows grey area is to their benifit if used correctly. I say according to the rules a person who has taken the time and has the skills to do it should be allowed at least until next years rules come out.
Thanks, Kip

sinister · #21 (**permalink**) February 26th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Ya...... What Kip said