Which Heads

Larry · #1 (**permalink**) December 14th, 2002, 10:37 PM

JUST GOT MY 1ST STAGE BLOCK- 3.8, NICE PIECE. I'll be purchasing a set of heads.. Im thinking Champion "R" heads with T&D roller rockers or would you say M&A's. PLus- will the champion "R" heads fit a 3.8 or are they designed for 4.1? Looking to run mid to hi 9's. Thanks LArry

NJTurbo · #2 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 11:26 AM

I will probally get hammered on this one as this is a hot topic as we speak. You can do a search on the board about GN1'S. Some guys love them, some hate them. From what i have read there were some issues with the early castings, however i myself have a set of GN1R'S for my S2 engine, you can see that the casting is a little differnet than early GN1'S, Alot more meat around the headbolt area. I have not heard of as many complaints with the newer castings. If i was in the market today for heads, i would probally wait to see TA'S heads, it is based off the MA casting with major improvments for cooling and durabilty. Just my 2 cents...

Enclosed is a pic of my heads go to S2 folder.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/travis951...N+PICS&.view=t

Two Lane · #3 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 12:37 PM

Once again, NJ shows evidence of becoming the supreme Buick genius!

Any one needs to trust every piece of advice he gives, & take notes !

We're all very lucky he even takes time to share even a sliver of his ever-growing knowledge with us.
______________________________________________

I bow to his blinding brilliance, & of course agree with his suggestions to strongly consider the new heads from www.taperformance.com due out in February.

Your faithful servant, TL

NJTurbo · #4 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 01:10 PM

I will make room in my palace for you.

Two Lane · #5 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 01:47 PM

NJ is the King...Long live the King!!

How's that Dragstrip coming at Graceland?

Fat Nat · #6 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 04:52 PM

My advice would be to buy the gn1r's with the cnc port and polish. You should see 9's on these with the right turbo. ie. PT88

. Go with somthing thats proven. Ive seen these heads run well into the 8's

Larry · #7 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 09:02 PM

I have talked with both Tom A. and Mike T.--- thanks guys- sounds like a toss up.. Larry

Ted A. · #8 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 09:13 PM

I'd send the GN-1R's out and have them ported by another party that can give you some flow #'s. Send them out to Nick Micale, he seems like a straight forward guy.

I have a set of heads ported by Champion and I had them flowed by E.T. performance in Walled Lake and the guy laughed at me when I told him what it costed.

Ted

FreddieWilliams · #9 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 09:42 PM

Care to share those flow #'s with us?

Kip · #10 (**permalink**) December 15th, 2002, 11:44 PM

I would love to hear the numbers also.
Thanks, Kip

RealFastV6 · #11 (**permalink**) December 16th, 2002, 01:49 PM

Make sure you have your Champion heads ported and machined by some random guy who is great at doing smallblock chevy stuff and has never seen a Champion head, that way, when the port walls are too thin and you crack them, you can come on the board and trash Champion.

Wait...

On second thought, just get the Gn1s already CNC ported from Champion.

Whatever money you think you're doing to save is not worth having more hands in the pie.

Two Lane · #12 (**permalink**) December 16th, 2002, 02:02 PM

Only about 8 more weeks until the TA heads are out!!

Two Lane · #13 (**permalink**) December 16th, 2002, 02:07 PM

Then, Get Nick Micale to "massage" them...ship 'em off to Extrude Hone for pore surfacing...Use Jason's HG kit...Happy Valentine's Day, lil' GN!

quickt · #14 (**permalink**) December 17th, 2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat Nat
My advice would be to buy the gn1r's with the cnc port and polish. You should see 9's on these with the right turbo. ie. PT88. Go with somthing thats proven. Ive seen these heads run well into the 8's

The M&A heads have also been in the 8s long before the champs. I have seen M&As with problems but have never seen an M&A head removed in 2 pieces like the GN1Rs and the GN1s. (Yep broke in two pieces.) I have seen the M&As leak like a fire hose. If you are not in a hurry I would at least take a look at the TA heads then make a decision.

Ted A. · #15 (**permalink**) December 17th, 2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreddieWilliams
Care to share those flow #'s with us?

Do a search on flow #'s. I posted them a while back. My point is, I asked for some flow #'s after I purchased the heads through Cottons and they were not available. It would seem if a company is porting heads, there should be a benchmark they should be obtaining to give you a reference to what you are actually paying them to do.

I agree with you Justin, I wouldn't send the heads out to somebody who doesn't know what the heads are. On the flip side at least Tom can't blame the porting if the heads do crack since he/they did them.

Ted

Trbobuick · #16 (**permalink**) December 17th, 2002, 10:20 PM

1st- the 3.8 bore will have to be "fisheyed" to fit the r head.

2nd- my regular gn1's were CNC at champion and tom did an awsome job- 251 cfm @ 600...and yes a flow sheet was included.
He is just as cheap or expensive as anybody out there and he knows the heads he created.

As far as sealing gn-1's........six gm "caddilac tabs" and its sealed.

HighPSI · #17 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2002, 07:30 AM

Champion is the ONLY person I trust porting my heads. With their cnc machine, they have the ability to get great flow numbers consistantly. I guess I have been out of the loop, but I haven't heard of any problems with the later GN-1's.

So far, my Champions are keeping up with the 300+cfm Stage headed cars in TSO. Not sure why.. It should be real interesting when the TA headed cars join our class.

Larry: I would just buy a standard set of GN-1's. They will bolt on with no mods to the block and should easily meet your goals.

Jeff Rand · #18 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2002, 08:43 AM

I also have Champion heads on a stage motor. My first set cracked after one run and they were returned to Champion for welding. Two months later I received the repaired heads and they cracked again after one run. It took 8 months and reports to the Fl. BBB to get a new set (latest design)of heads. So far I have not had any issues with the current heads but I did change the guides after reports of problems with the exhaust side. I am not impressed with the amount of metal support for the guides. In an effort to get the ports to flow, they compromised and removed some critical aluminum in this area.
Jeff

VictoryTrans · #19 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2002, 08:52 AM

Has there been any actual testing comparing the performance difference of GN-1R's and standard GN-1's? And also does anyone know how much the TA heads are supposed flow as compared to GN-1R's, GN-1's and S2 heads?

quickt · #20 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2002, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HighPSI
Champion is the ONLY person I trust porting my heads. With their cnc machine, they have the ability to get great flow numbers consistantly. I guess I have been out of the loop, but I haven't heard of any problems with the later GN-1's.

Cal didn’t you just remove a 2 piece champion head? I heard that you thought you had a blown head gasket and when you disassembled you found a broken head.

quickt · #21 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2002, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VictoryTrans
And also does anyone know how much the TA heads are supposed flow as compared to GN-1R's, GN-1's and S2 heads?

I have a set of these heads on order. I have been told ported flow numbers but nothing out of the box so that would not be good info to compare with GN1. All I can tell you is the std valve size is 1.94/1.60 option is 2.02/1.60. The valves have been moved to the center of the cyl. allowing the 1.94/160 to be used on a 3.8 bore so the intake valve is unshrouded.