Titanium valves

[jamesmac]

I am wondering if I can use the titanium valves that my heads came with, or if I have to buy S.S. One engine builder says that they are only good to 1400 degrees F. Another says to use them, they are more durable.

James

[750H.P.V6]

James,

I had this same question myself when I wanted to run titanium valves on the street. I spoke to several engine builders and got conflicting opinions. There seems to be very little first hand knowledge that would pertain to our application ie; turbocharged street motors with titanium valves.

I decided to call Ken Duttweiler and get his input. The Readers Digest version is basically that you wouldn't want to run titanium valves in say an turbo endurance (road race) application but drag racing should be fine. He ended by saying "If you've got 'em run 'em but if not don't spend the money".

I hope this makes sense.

Neal

[Ted A.]

In the end, it still doesn't make you feel that great about doing it.

I have heard the same, and don't feel the extra couple of bucks should be a issue considering the value of the engine, and the peace of mind.

[jamesmac]

Thanks Neil. Did you use the titaniums, & do you know what your E.G.T. is. Do you use your car on the street, with pump gas(94).

James

[750H.P.V6]

James,

Actually that project got shelved. What I was going to do was re-configure an old Busch GN motor (Stage II heads and all) and run it on the street. I'm still planning on using the Stage II heads with the titanium valves but haven't done so yet.

Ted has a point, if you're worried about the titanium valves you can replace the exhaust valves with Stainless Steel. I'm going to use mine as is. BTW, I don't have an EGT gauge so I can't really give you my $.02 on that. 1600 degrees wouldn't be that uncommon to see in a racing application.

Neal

[EightSecV6]

Ive used the Titanium valves in several street and race engines and have never burned one. They are MUCH lighter than the stainless valves. My EGT's on the race car run about 1850 degf

[Mac in SD]

Yup. Tortured myself with the same decision, with the same mixed advice from knowledgeable people. I would up spending the bucks for a set of stainless Ferrea's, then Kenny D. tells Neal to "go ahead and run 'em." WTF.

[750H.P.V6]

Mac,

So what you're saying is that you have some titanium valves for sale cheap?

Neal

Hi guys, I dont want to step on any toes I know I am not an expert on race engines but I have some knowledge on Metallurgy and believe it or not Titanium is made from sand! everyone knows that when sand is heated it turns to glass well when its super heated say to 5000* some of its structure forms into what we know as Titanium. It was 1st discovered at los alamos in New Mexico during the development of the A-Bomb. so their shouldnt be any worries about exhaust gas temps and Titanium.also for some other cool info, the skin of a SR-71 Blackbird is also made from Titanium because it was the ONLY metal that could survive the extreme temps of Mach 3+ and still be light enough for flight!

My.02

later, Frank

[The Radius Kid]

From what I remember form my days of racing,Neal's right.It was common practice to use titanium intake valaves and stainless exhaust valves.The stainless exhausts were better at standing up to the exhaust heat and weight wise,they usually didn't show that big of a weight difference compared to the stainless due to the smaller size of the exhaust valve.

[TurboTR]

Well Lozano Bros also felt that Ti was not the best choice for turbo duty, but Bill A. says he's run them with no problem, so...

flip a coin I guess :-)

TurboTR

[EightSecV6]

I dont want to step on any toes either but how many 1000+HP V6 engines has Lazano Bros. built for drag racing? Choice is yours...
Bill

[TurboTR]

None for drag racing, but they were Buick factory sponsored (like Ruggles) and did some of the turbo indy stuff and all.

TurboTR

[Chuck Leeper]

Haven't seen anyone mention the "fatigue factor" in this thread.
I guess that any/all valves are subjected to fatigue. However, a used valve, as my engine guy said, is like a "used condom", once used, they are to be thrown away. He also stated that the valves in the used engines we are getting from the ASA, NASCAR, folks have, in most cases, seen VERY high rpm's for extended periods of time, all w/ very high spring pressures on them.
I end to go w/ his advice, as he was a builder for the BUICK ASA and road race, [IMSA] program[s].
The last stage 2 I've been involved in, an odd fire on the street, had the titaniums taken out and new stainless put in.

Just my $.02 worth.

[TGrant]

New S/S valves in "Parts for Sale"

[WFO]

for argument's sake:isn't inconel supposed to be the best material for exhaust valves?anyone ever shelled out the $$ for some?

later,sean

[JayC]

After talking to numerous people on this subject in the past and from my own experience, here's my 2 cents worth.

Race car - run em both in titanium
Street car - titanium intakes, SS exhaust

Another thing, and people may argue with this, but I think titanium valves are only good for about a season and at that point they need to be replaced. This point has been debated somewhat but I had a titanium valve disintegrate on me after being in use for about a year, replaced them and no troubles since.

[Chuck Leeper]

I go w/ jay's comment on the unknown life expectancy of used valves.
I also had the same comments regarding TITanium rods from the folks at Gaerte Race Engines in Rochester IN. The shop forman said to be very cautious when using used titanium anything. Again, that follows closely w/ Jay's comment.
The TITanium rods I had were coated w/?? [A process that can be repeated on used rods] He said that the coating was to prevent the titanium from galling. I'd think that would be the same requirement for valves, given the close tolerances on a valve guide. YES-NO??

back to my rock

[The Radius Kid]

Could be,depending on the amount of heat,lubrication.and clearances between the guide and stem.Titanium does not like contact friction.I've machined it and have seen it for myself.

[turbo bitt]

I to had the same delema, My heads had titanium valves. I called Kenny D. and told me to use
inconel exhaust because they don't stretch under extreme heat. Titanium will stretch and move
under heat. I ran regular stainless on the intake. I didn't wan't to blow a valve through my expensive turbo .
Allan Gorneault

I find this post intresting. I have just pulled my heads because I started to put some pressure into the rad and found some small tracking in the gasket to the water passage. That problem will be addressed.

I had the heads sent over to the head shop be freshened up ( after 2 years and about 60 runs) and was told that all the SS exhaust valves are bent from heat I will be changing them to the inconel. It makes me wonder how long they have been dameged? The car has run high 9.80's to a best of 9.71 so it will be intresting to see the improvment with the new valves.

Take Care

[n20junkie]

while it is true that titanium comes from sand it is more comples process than super heating a beach, it is a multi-step chemical process that is very complicated, and this is where the cost comes from, but titanium is one of the must abundant metals on the earth, it is not an alloy of metals, it is an element, but when used in automotive uses it is usually alloyed with aluminum and vandium in about a 6 percent alum 4 percent vandium alloy. titanium is also known as a memory metal, it has almost spring qualitys, a bitch to bend, it also has a flaw, it has bad crack/scratch propagation problems, a small scratch or crack will shoot across a piece faster than a crack through a windshield, and one of the major reasons the titanium was used on the SR-71 was was its heat expansion was close to the alum under parts, if stainless was used, it does not move at the same rate of alum, and it would cause great stress to the airframe at temprature, the similar expansion rate is due to its loose grain structure , which is the reason for its low weight and cracking problem, so that is why used titanium valves should be replaced.
Grant J Farmer