Palin/Biden FACT CHECK!

[Weester]

WASHINGTON - Republican Sarah Palin criticized a version of a Barack Obama health care plan that doesn't exist and Democrat Joe Biden clung to a misleading charge about Republicans and big oil when the two clashed in the vice presidential debate Thursday.


Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

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BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

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PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."

THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.

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BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

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PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control. BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

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PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

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BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

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PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

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PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.

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PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."

THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

[SS_Sean]

source?

[a trail rider]

Originally Posted by Weester

WASHINGTON -
PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."

THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.

How can the 'reporter' say it's wrong on several counts, then go back in the last sentence and use the same basic term she used? Throughout the "facts" in the matter, it is explained as what she called it... government run. Besides, it was Obama himself who 1st referred to his plan as "universal" months ago, and she had nothing to do with that. In the end, his plan is to get the government to take at least some control... She opposes that. Matter of fact, so do I.

And on the matter of the real coverage going to children: I believe that is the idea, but Obama constantly refers to the "47 million uninsured," knowing full well, more than 30 million of those people are adults, most of whom don't choose to have insurance for whatever reason.

I'm not taking issue with the "facts" in general, but what she said was essentially accurate based on Barack's own comments and the reality, his plan does include governmental control which most Americans don't want.

Just thought that issue deserved addressing.

[IEATV8S]

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

[SFITurbo]

Weester, if you are using factcheck.org you should be suspiciuos of what they are putting out. I myself thought them to be impartial until I checked further on who is controlling their purse strings. I have learned to not trust any one source of information,be it left or right slanted.

[a trail rider]

That article was written By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer ... Associated Press writers Tom Raum, Steve Quinn, Jim Kuhnhenn, Lolita Baldor and Matthew Lee contributed to this report.



and it seems they used factcheck.org for only 1 thing. Maybe it was more, but from the looks...

[Weester]

Originally Posted by SFITurbo

Weester, if you are using factcheck.org you should be suspiciuos of what they are putting out. I myself thought them to be impartial until I checked further on who is controlling their purse strings. I have learned to not trust any one source of information,be it left or right slanted.

SFI,

I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with the info, Just posting it!


McCain needs to seriously look into getting a new running mate ASAP!

Palin is a complete moron and could cost him the election!!!

[a trail rider]

Originally Posted by Weester

SFI,

I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with the info, Just posting it!


McCain needs to seriously look into getting a new running mate ASAP!

Palin is a complete moron and could cost him the election!!!

McCain may lose the election, but it isn't going to be Sarah Palin's fault if he does.

She hasn't done anything to give reason to think it would be. McCain won't be getting a new running mate and neither will Obama, although each could've made a better choice.

[henschman]

Originally Posted by Weester

McCain needs to seriously look into getting a new running mate ASAP!

Palin is a complete moron and could cost him the election!!!

americans like morons, as long as they look good in front of a camera.

whether she is a moron or not, palin was a genius choice. it got the voters focused on things other than the issues, just like Obama was able to acheive with his crowd. its all about cult of personality these days. it gets you votes a lot more reliably than issues do.

[Weester]

Originally Posted by henschman

americans like morons, as long as they look good in front of a camera.

whether she is a moron or not, palin was a genius choice. it got the voters focused on things other than the issues, just like Obama was able to acheive with his crowd. its all about cult of personality these days. it gets you votes a lot more reliably than issues do.

Is that what they mean when they say, "The Dumbing down of America"?

[salvageV6]

" Is that what they mean when they say, "The Dumbing down of America"? "

I see you're voting for McCain Weepie.

Palin was a brilliant choice as was mentioned, Biden not so much.

OH THE SHAME!!!

[SFITurbo]

Originally Posted by Weester

SFI,

I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with the info, Just posting it!


McCain needs to seriously look into getting a new running mate ASAP!

Palin is a complete moron and could cost him the election!!!

I beg to differ, it should be the other way around. Palin is exactly what this country needs right now, a down to earth citizen with no long time influence from the government machine. Although McCain has some good ideas, I feel he is still under the influence of lobbyist no matter what he says, and Palin hasn't been there to be exposed to all the crap that happens. Biden made mistakes also, I wouldn't expect ANYONE tho spew out exact facts on so many different topics in such a forum. The whole purpose is to surround yourself with competent people and charge them with maintaining information to be called upon when needed to make an informed decision. In perspective, would you ask Dale Jr. how many left side tires he has in his inventory? NO. Those details are left to someone else, he drives, supported by the crew, for the success of the team. Palin strikes me as someone that wants to get the job(race) won, unfortunately McCain has caved too much IMO just to "finish" the race. I believe Biden is too entrenched in the ways of Washington, and not willing to change his ways, and I don't believe he will like playing second fiddle to Obama for long. Unfortunately I think that Obama will win on the simple fact that too large of a majority of Americans (particularly the younger citizens) are easily influenced by hype and are too stupid to be voting.

[IEATV8S]

Originally Posted by Weester

SFI,

I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with the info, Just posting it!


McCain needs to seriously look into getting a new running mate ASAP!

Palin is a complete moron and could cost him the election!!!

Odd, that a few Conservativees express this view (they are WRONG, but that is their view) but MOST people that are voting for McLame seem to feel Palin is the one thing that has really energized his campaign! Can't ask for more then that from a person thrown into national and world politics only 5 weeks ago! She's what we need CHANGE and HOPE!!!!!!!!

She's held up her end of the team, BUT McLame is going to have to get off his ASS and hit the CHIMP with some FORCE and stop taking his lies and bullchit, without answering him back! That bipartisan chit he keeps spewing, instead of winning votes, drives them away! It had best STOP and STOP NOW!

[The Blob]

Originally Posted by SFITurbo

Palin is exactly what this country needs right now, a down to earth citizen with no long time influence from the government machine.

+1

Let's put a regular person in office and see what they can do.

the simple fact that too large of a majority of Americans (particularly the younger citizens) are easily influenced by hype and are too stupid to be voting.

I absolutely seriously believe that there should be a basic literacy test required to vote. And it could be an oral test for those who cannot read. It would just test basic awareness of the government that anybody who pays even a little bit of attention would easily know. I don't want complete morons determining my future.

I also think that if you don't pay taxes you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[V8Assassin]

Originally Posted by The Blob

+1

Let's put a regular person in office and see what they can do.



I absolutely seriously believe that there should be a basic literacy test required to vote. And it could be an oral test for those who cannot read. It would just test basic awareness of the government that anybody who pays even a little bit of attention would easily know. I don't want complete morons determining my future.

I also think that if you don't pay taxes you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

WORDS OF WISDOM!

Weester, you really are on the wrong side of this.

[70Mach1]

My favorite line of the night from Biden is when he explained how the US was able to get the Croates, Serbs and Bosnians together after thousands of years of fighting, and how good that was.

If I am not mistaken, wasn't this the same Biden who for almost a year was pushing a plan for Iraq to split the nation along ethnic lines, because these groups have been fighting for thousands of years and could never live together.

I was waiting for Palin to wipe that silly smile he had on his face after spitting out that line of BS, but sadly she didn't.

[BlownZ]

Originally Posted by The Blob

+1

Let's put a regular person in office and see what they can do.



I absolutely seriously believe that there should be a basic literacy test required to vote. And it could be an oral test for those who cannot read. It would just test basic awareness of the government that anybody who pays even a little bit of attention would easily know. I don't want complete morons determining my future.

I also think that if you don't pay taxes you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Howard Stern did a bit last week where he sent Sal out to Harlem and interviewed the local residents about who they supported for president.

The main question after they ALL said they supported Obama was...."Do you support him more because he's Pro Choice or because he is in favor of staying in Iraq until the job is done."

These dumbasses mostly said BOTH.

The follow up question was..."Are you ok with him selecting Palin as his running mate....do you think that is going to work out ok."

Oh yeah...I think that was a great choice was the answer from all.

Sad.....I know most of these idiots won't actually show up to vote so maybe the gene pool is deeper than we think when it comes to the voting booth....but I doubt it.