The Civil War. You a Confederate backer or a Union backer??

[JSAautomotive]

Quoted from Nigil in an earlier thread. I thought it was pretty well tought and written out.

In the early 1820’s civil war almost broke out between the north and the south over slavery. A solution was adopted to allow states north of the 30 something parallel to enter free and south to enter slave. This compromise seemed to quell the tempers, but was not a long lasting solution. The division was so strong that petitions to end slavery where not allowed to be read on the house floor. John Quincy Adams, the 6th president and son of John Adams the 2nd president, was very skilled in getting around the gag order and bringing the abolition of slavery to the house floor as a representative of Massachusetts. (He was a lame president, but turned out to leave quite a legacy as a representative). His efforts helped to stir the country and gave abolitionist a point to rally behind. From the 1820’s to Lincoln’s run for president as the first republican candidate and subsequently the first republican president, the battle over slavery continued to pick up steam and culminated with Lincoln’s election which precipitated the start of the war. Part of Lincoln’s platform was to, if elected, to ensure no new states entered as slave states, but as free states. The states where slavery existed would continue as slave states. The southern states could not abide their way of life being questioned, nor would they accept the goal of the eventual demise of slavery. The southern states promised to separate if Lincoln was elected, which they tried to do after his election.
Sorry for the somewhat disjointed account, but it is all from memory, and it skips a beat on me every once in a while. But my recollection about the civil war is that it was all about slavery. The irony was that economically the north was kicking the $hit out of the south due to modern machines and factories, and actually paying workers which gave incentive to work hard. The slaves worked hard at finding ways to kill productivity as a form of passive rebellion. And oh by the way, it was the Christians of north who organized heavily against slavery and were partly responsible for getting Lincoln elected.

Anybody care to comment on this?? Z?? Red?? Confederate or Union flag flyer?? And for what reason??

[BlownZ]

Causes of the Civil War
by Randy Golden
exclusively for About North Georgia



...and they [Yankees] are marked ... with such a perversity of character, as to constitute, from that circumstance, the natural division of our parties
Thomas Jefferson



Some say simplistically that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Unfortunately, there is no "simple" reason. The causes of the war were a complex series of events, including slavery, that began long before the first shot was fired. Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy could all be listed as significant contributing factors in America's bloodiest conflict.

Complaints of Georgians

Many of the problems Georgians saw more than one hundred fifty years ago are being reiterated today. The "oppressive" federal government. High taxes(tariffs before the war). A growing government unwilling to listen to law abiding citizens. Sound familiar? They were complaints levied from 1816 on in Georgia.

Constitutional Questions

People argued about the meaning of the Constitution since its infancy. From a legal standpoint, the document defines the relationship between the people of the United States and the federal government, detailing the powers and responsibilities of each. In 1828 Vice-president John C. Calhoun said if a state felt a federal law extended beyond the Constitutional rights of the government that state had the right to ignore(or "nullify") the law. This concept dated back the Articles of Confederation. President Andrew Jackson felt the federal government was the highest authority(Article VI, Section 2) and the states had to abide by its law.

Tariffs and the Nullification Crisis

As industry in the North expanded it looked towards southern markets, rich with cash from the lucrative agricultural business, to buy the North's manufactured goods. However, it was often cheaper for the South to purchase the goods abroad. In order to "protect" the northern industries Jackson slapped a tariff on many of the imported goods that could be manufactured in the North. When South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification in November 1832, refusing to collect the tariff and threatening to withdraw from the Union, Jackson ordered federal troops to Charleston. A secession crisis was averted when Congress revised the Tariff of Abominations in February 1833.

The rhetoric changes

However, the political climate changed during this "Nullification Crisis." Designations of States Rightist, Pro-Union, loose or strict constructionalist became more important than Whig or Democrat. In North Georgia when John Thomas, a local politician, was asked what to name a new county he said, "Name it Union, for none but Union-like men live here." Most of the northern tier of Georgia counties remained pro-Union until the outbreak of war almost 30 years later. From this point on factional politics would play an increasing part in the division of a country.

Economic changes affect society

The Panic of 1837 and the ensuing depression began to gnaw like a hungry animal on the flesh of the American system. The disparity between northern and southern economies was exacerbated. Before and after the depression the economy of the South prospered. Southern cotton sold abroad totaled 57% of all American exports before the war. The Panic of 1857 devastated the North and left the South virtually untouched. The clash of a wealthy, agricultural South and a poorer, industrial North was intensified by abolitionists who were not above using class struggle to further their cause.

The breakdown of the political system

The ugliness of the political process quickly began to show as parties turned upon themselves and politics on a national level were more like local Georgia politics. Feuds and fights in political arenas were common. From 1837 until 1861 eight men became president, but no man served more than a single term in office. One sitting president was not renominated by his own party and another withdrew his name after being nominated. New political parties were created with names like Constitutional Union, American, Free-Soilers and Republican. In Georgia, Democrats were strong, but factional fighting broke the party along pro-Union and States Rights lines.

With the disintegration of the Whig party in the early 1850's the political turmoil increased. Howell Cobb, former Speaker of the House, molded pro-Union Democrats, mostly from North Georgia, with former Whigs to grab the governorship in 1851. His attempts to help slaves fell on the deaf ears of our state legislature. Although Georgia began to prosper during his first year the coalition fell apart as the Democrats reunited. The increasing power of the West and self-serving politicians like Stephen A. Douglas churned the political environment as the North and South battled for philosophic control.

By the time Buchanan was elected(1856) the country was divided on many issues, including slavery. Former Governor Cobb spoke in the North as a moderate Southerner for Buchanan and served on his cabinet. Over the next 4 years Cobb changed from pro-Union to secessionist. A similar process occurred across much of Georgia. In 1860 the state was equally divided between secessionist and pro-Union.

A concise history of slavery

At Jamestown, Va. in 1611 a group of Scottish women and children were sold as slaves. 7 years later in Jamestown the first Africans were sold in slavery. From 1611 until 1865 people from virtually every society on earth were sold into slavery in North America. Citizens in each of the thirteen colonies enslaved people, but slavery was viewed as a southern institution after the early 1800's. Along the coastal areas of the South a majority of the slaves were black. In some inland areas whites and Native Americans outnumbered black slaves. Slavery is still legal in the United States as a criminal punishment, but is not practiced.

In 1789 Georgians, as did much of the rest of the country, saw slavery as a dying institution. Eli Whitney's stolen modification of the cotton gin(1793) created a greater demand for slaves, so rather than "wither on the vine" the institution prospered. The Northwest Ordinance, adopted in 1787 banned the practice in the Northwest Territories. In 1798 Georgia forbid further importation of slaves and the Constitution allowed Congress to outlaw importation of slaves in 1808, which they did. Over the next 40 years lesser skirmishes were fought over slavery including the Compromise of 1820. In North Georgia slavery was not widespread and a majority of the slaves were of Native American, Scottish or Irish descent.

Slaves often spoke of "our cotton" or "our cattle". The only item they would concede was the master's carriage. Trusted slaves were permitted to go to town unescorted. Others suffered horribly. Conditions in northern factories were as bad or worse than those for a majority of the slaves, but it would be 40 years after the war when they were properly addressed.

Beginning in the late 1840's the conflict over slavery began to boil over. The Compromise of 1850 contributed heavily to the split in Georgia's Democratic Party. On a national scale David Wilmot, Lloyd Garrison, and Harriet Beecher Stowe enflamed the abolitionists. James G. Birney and Theodore Weld were more effective against slavery. The Dred Scot decision, Kansas-Nebraska Act, and harsher Fugitive Slave Laws gave the South some redress.

[b]The new Republican Party became a home to the alienated abolitionists. Although they totaled less than 3% of the population at large, they formulated the Republican platform to include the abolition of slavery as a plank. [b]The party then nominated Abraham Lincoln for president. Few gave him any chance of success, but 3 other candidates split the popular vote and Lincoln won. Convinced that Lincoln would ruin the South economically, possibly by freeing the slaves, the heartland of the South withdrew from the Union. Shortly thereafter the upper south joined them. The attack on Fort Sumter launched America's bloodiest conflict.

So what caused the war?

The United States had been moving towards a fractured, divisive society for a number of years. Cultural and economic differences served to widen the rift. Battles among North, South, and West grew more heated, especially after 1850. Politicians and the judiciary sent conflicting signals trying to appease each of the groups involved, yet all remained dissatisfied. Georgians saw a federal government controlled by Northern industrialists who were unresponsive to the problems of their state. Tariffs paid by Georgians bought improvements in northern and western states. Now the federal government, they thought, was going to take away personal property without compensation, a clear violation of their Fourth Amendment rights.

The South was wrong to assume Lincoln intended to free the slaves. He had never advocated action to abolish slavery nor did he speak out against the Illinois rules prohibiting blacks from testifying against whites.

The true abolition candidate, Gerrit Smith of New York drew few votes. In his inaugural address Lincoln made it clear he would not interfere with slavery where it existed. Even though he made this speech after the South seceded he left the door open for their return.

During the war

Southerners abolished the African slave trade in the Confederate Constitution. In the North "Preserve the Union" was the battlecry and Lincoln quoted "...a house divided shall not stand..." from the Bible. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation(1862), a foreign affair ploy, cost Republicans control of the legislature that November. A year later Lincoln restated why the war was fought when he said, dedicating a cemetery at Gettysburg "..for those who here gave their lives that this nation might live." During the Draft Riots in New York City 88 blacks were lynched.

After the war

Phil Sheridan, George Armstrong Custer and others adapted very quickly from killing rebels to the genocide of Native Americans. The South was "reconstructed" for the next 87 years. Southerners formed "brotherhoods" that featured white robes, lynchings and unanimous support for Democratic candidates in the South and West. Confederate General John B. Gordon, reputed leader of this Ku Klux Klan, was elected governor of Georgia. Blacks struggled for nearly one hundred years to gain legal and economic equality.





Date of Emancipation Proclamation.....and date of start of Civil War?

Why aren't they the same?

Ooops

[Skylark-69]

Union of course. I also agree with Blown. From my research the war didn't start as much over slavery as people think. It was definitely a major factor, but not the only factor. Been through this debate multiple times with hardcore Lincoln haters-sick of arguing it. I'm out.

[Nigel]

BlownZ,

I do not believe we are saying a whole lot different. We agree that Lincoln did not run on an abolitionist platform, part of his platform was no new slave states.

Most of the south threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected.

My take, based on what I know, the south would not accept being challenged on slavery. As proof, I offer the B.S. gag rule not allowing petitions to end slavery to be read on the floor of the House of Representatives during the early to mid 1800’s.

People can’t agree on the economy today let alone 150+ years ago, my take is the south was not doing as well as the north.

Is VP Calhoun the same as the one that was Senator of Mississippi around the 1830’s (not sure of exact date)?

I like what you posted, but my opinion is that it adds a more well rounded view to what I posted earlier, but does not really contradict it.

I did not state that Lincoln proposed the abolition of slavery. He did not for the same reason slavery was not addressed during the constitution convention, people wanted the US to live, and the slavery issue was to big to overcome. Lincoln hoped for the eventual demise of slavery through ending it’s expansion.

I believe it certainly was the foremost issue; the others could have been overcome if it were not for this issue. JMO.

[BlownZ]

The South was doing far better than the North.....so the North decided to impose tariffs to try and even the balance.

Post Civil War...that balance certainly changed.

[GrnNatlFan]

Originally Posted by JSAautomotive

Quoted from Nigil in an earlier thread. I thought it was pretty well tought and written out.

In the early 1820’s civil war almost broke out between the north and the south over slavery. A solution was adopted to allow states north of the 30 something parallel to enter free and south to enter slave. This compromise seemed to quell the tempers, but was not a long lasting solution. The division was so strong that petitions to end slavery where not allowed to be read on the house floor. John Quincy Adams, the 6th president and son of John Adams the 2nd president, was very skilled in getting around the gag order and bringing the abolition of slavery to the house floor as a representative of Massachusetts. (He was a lame president, but turned out to leave quite a legacy as a representative). His efforts helped to stir the country and gave abolitionist a point to rally behind. From the 1820’s to Lincoln’s run for president as the first republican candidate and subsequently the first republican president, the battle over slavery continued to pick up steam and culminated with Lincoln’s election which precipitated the start of the war. Part of Lincoln’s platform was to, if elected, to ensure no new states entered as slave states, but as free states. The states where slavery existed would continue as slave states. The southern states could not abide their way of life being questioned, nor would they accept the goal of the eventual demise of slavery. The southern states promised to separate if Lincoln was elected, which they tried to do after his election.
Sorry for the somewhat disjointed account, but it is all from memory, and it skips a beat on me every once in a while. But my recollection about the civil war is that it was all about slavery. The irony was that economically the north was kicking the $hit out of the south due to modern machines and factories, and actually paying workers which gave incentive to work hard. The slaves worked hard at finding ways to kill productivity as a form of passive rebellion. And oh by the way, it was the Christians of north who organized heavily against slavery and were partly responsible for getting Lincoln elected.

Anybody care to comment on this?? Z?? Red?? Confederate or Union flag flyer?? And for what reason??

AMERICAN FLAG......because it is the Greatest nation on the face of the earth.

[STAGE 2]

Back the union but with a healthy dose of sympathy for the south.

[weester87]

Here's a good link that even y'all can understand......


"There were many reasons for a Civil War to happen in America, and political issues and disagreements began soon after the American Revolution ended in 1782. Between the years 1800 and 1860, arguments between the North and South grew more intense. One of the main quarrels was about taxes paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. This tax was called a tariff."

This is rather amusing,

"Confederate States of America elected Jefferson Davis, a Democratic senator and champion of states rights from Mississippi, as the first president.

Read the whole article!


http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/cause.htm

[JSAautomotive]

Where's Red on this?? Scared to give your opinion?? Please Red tell us. Do you think the south should have kept her slaves?? Do you fly the Confederate flag at home??

[BlownZ]

Originally Posted by JSAautomotive

Where's Red on this?? Scared to give your opinion?? Please Red tell us. Do you think the south should have kept her slaves?? Do you fly the Confederate flag at home??

John...you keep bringing up slavery as the cause of the Civil War....I have responded numerous times with facts and articles....yet you haven't responded even once but continue to badger Red about it.

Why are you afraid to debate the issue?

[GNandGS]

He doesnt respond to you because he doesnt want to debate or discuss things here. His goal seems to be to stir things up.

Just the notion that southern state people are racist, to the exclusioin of others is just dumb. To assume from that somehow conservatives (Repubs) are racist will be next Im sure.

[BlownZ]

The funny part is that the South was largely Democratic during the Civil War.

How's that taste?

[1QWIK6]

CONNECT THE DOTS DITTO HEADS

[GNandGS]

I would say those blue colored areas dont complain that Robert Byrd has had a long career, heck they LIKELY voted for Gore. You know, his dad helped filibuster the Civil Rights Act of '64 right?

If you wanna be an ass just like the others in suggesting state border lines dictate racism, Im gonna keep throwing your false logic back at you.

Painting all southern states as racist is more than troll-like, its insulting.

[plowboy72]

Being a super proud southern man I have some thoughts I'd like to share. For one flying the confederate flag DOES NOT MAKE YOU RACIST! If you grew up down here you would know this. Does it really matter that the south had slaves? The state that owned the most slaves was New York. The average southern man during those troubling years couldn't afford slaves. Am I proud that the south had slaves? No! I think being that their isn't a person left living that was a slave we should all progress on to other issues. You may not like it but the confederate flag was and is a part of this countries history. If that flag offends you I don't care! So if slavery is the issue, lets talk about the fact that the northern states also had slave labor!

[JSAautomotive]

1QWIK6....

Funny how these guys would love to just forget about the souths history in all of this racism. It's like some skinheads here would like to forget or erase that the holocaust ever happened.

Z..... I have debated you before on this.... and is why I started this thread to see exactly where you stood on the issue. I think Nigel has said pretty much everything I would have said on the matter. It's a matter of record in the history book. That is.... unless you prefer your revisionist version of it which does not coencide with the vast amount of published history out there. You passed the test, I think you are far too intelligent to dwell in the house of racism.

Now Red on the other hand. Notice how Red has said absolutly nothing?? Not that it's an admission of guilt. But if the dude was a man, he'd just come out and say why he is on one side either way. I think I already know the answer.

As far as democrats being racist.... yup. Anybody with a brain knows that the Dixiecrats were well know for being involved with the KKK. I knew someone was going to be throwing in the Byrd card eventually. It's the only thing you guys have to disgrace the democrats with. Did he recind his beliefs at an early age?? Has he ever since been an advocate to the civil rights movement against racism?? Does he and did he totally renounce his beliefs and association with the KKK?? That would be a huge YES to all those.

Now if you want to see how many racists lie with your conservative party. Lets dance. Shall we? Do you really wanna go there??

Trent Lott comes to mind.

"I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either," Lott said at last week's party.

Thurmond ran as the presidential nominee of the breakaway Dixiecrat Party in the 1948 presidential race against Democrat Harry Truman and Republican Thomas Dewey. He carried Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi and his home state of South Carolina, of which he was governor at the time."

Now there's a Republican (prior Dixiecrat... like Byrd) that never recinded his beliefs. And you guys want to site Byrd. LOL!!!


Getting to Lott, Republicans still think highly enough of him to make Lott chairman of the Senate Rules Committee, despite his public banishment as Senate Majority Leader and a racist record that includes far more than a few errant comments. As our last elected president, Bill Clinton, recently said, "[Lott] just embarrassed [Republican leaders] by saying in Washington what they do on the back roads every day." And as Jack Hughes of evilGOPbastards.com writes, the majority of Republican senators who elected Lott as their leader "must either share his views [which were so often repeated that nobody could plead ignorance of Lott's sympathies], or were at the very least ‘comfortable' with a leader that held those beliefs."

Indeed, many senators, such as new Majority Leader Bill Frist and Don Nickles, the first Senate Republican to call for Lott's resignation as majority leader – not because he's a racist but because it was giving Republicans bad publicity - have a civil rights voting record nearly identical to Lott, according to the NAACP. One of the worst – perhaps even worse than Lott – is Jefferson Sessions of Alabama. Sessions has called a black assistant U.S. attorney "boy" and a white civil rights attorney a "disgrace to his race." As a prosecutor, Sessions pursued civil rights workers on phony voter fraud charges. As Alabama attorney general, he again pursued allegations of voter fraud in African-American communities, looked the other way in Anglo communities, and refused to aggressively investigate burnings and bombings of black churches. He also said he thought KKK members were "OK" until he heard some might have smoked marijuana and charged the NAACP with being "un-American" and "Communist-inspired." Despite such a past, Bush and other Republicans have campaigned for Sessions.
http://www.democraticunderground.com...10_racist.html

Hall of Shame
Evil GOP Bastard of the Month
Neo-Confederate Republican Senator (VA) and Presidential Hopeful (?) Sen. George Allen. The ugly secret of the GOP is that if you scratch the skin of a Republican you'll find an unrepentant racist lurking underneath. Allen, whose odd penchant for Confederate flags extends back to his privileged youth in California, was reportedly involved in an ugly racist incident there. A Confederate flag (and a hangman's noose) has adorned his office. Allen's judgement has shown no signs of improvement over the years. Today, Senator Allen is pushing to promote General Jerry "My God's Better Than Your God" Boykin to command US Special Forces. Could a theocratic "Seven Days in May" scenario be far behind? The truly amazing thing about Allen is that today's Republican Party is so intellectually bankrupt that this goober is considered a serious contender for his party's nomination for president.
http://www.evilgopbastards.com

Originally Posted by GNandGS

I would say those blue colored areas dont complain that Robert Byrd has had a long career, heck they LIKELY voted for Gore. You know, his dad helped filibuster the Civil Rights Act of '64 right?

Just like the story I will post below will show how the Democratic party has policed themselves of the racists that existed within thier party. Have the conservatives done the same?? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by GNandGS

If you wanna be an ass just like the others in suggesting state border lines dictate racism, Im gonna keep throwing your false logic back at you.

Try to change history all you want, but racism is still alive and well in the old slave states. If you don't know it, then you aren't paying attention. It's a tradition more than anything.

Originally Posted by GNandGS

Painting all southern states as racist is more than troll-like, its insulting.

How about being a little sorry and compassionate for what crime to humanity those slave states committed?