Tss 2008???

[NCTURBOS]

Help me out here... What is keeping cars from running this class?? Is it the lack of "advertising" the class and being talked about on the internet? Do not enough racers see/know about the class?? A few years ago the rules were modified to allow Te-series (non-stock appearing) turbos in the class, & also make it a '109 block only class. That year there was something like 11-cars in the tech line on Friday, and from there I only thought it would grow. This years for 2008 there were only 3-cars to make it.

Plenty of the signatures I see below people's posts list perfect combinations to run this class... 67mm turbos, PTE SLIC's, an array of chip burners, etc... I just don't understand?? With the current rules I would think this to be a jam-up class for the "blue-collar" masses...

I remember when this was a class for the chip burners & vendors to gloat about, because their chip/parts equip'd car placed in the winners circle.


K.

[SGRIM]

Stock rear end #1 and foremost. I for one would not take my car with it power level with a stock rear end....

#2 Headers- Anything goes. Stockers just ain't cutting it

67 max turbo, 109's no strokers, and a 200, a S/L IC.

Let it all hang out!

67's and bigger, stokers, 400, and FM I/C are for TSM!

[NCTURBOS]

Originally Posted by SGRIM

Stock rear end #1 and foremost. I for one would not take my car with it power level with a stock rear end....

I remember your cause for this when I was trying to get you to run the class when I was the RRA... By running other than the stock rear-end you mean spool and C-clip elim., correct?

#2 Headers- Anything goes. Stockers just ain't cutting it

I see this becoming more of an issue, as the stockers are more prone to cracking & splitting the crossover with current HP/TQ levels and age. Anything goes though...?? My thoughts would be stock crossover location, turbo location, downpipe location, etc.

67 max turbo, 109's no strokers, and a 200, a S/L IC.

Let it all hang out!

67's and bigger, stokers, 400, and FM I/C are for TSM!

I agree...

I actually have no say, or pull as to what happens with the class anymore. I just don't want to see it go away due to lack of participation. I just can't understand how I see soooo many cars that meet the rules but don't run the class.


K.

[SGRIM]

Originally Posted by NCTURBOS

I remember your cause for this when I was trying to get you to run the class when I was the RRA... By running other than the stock rear-end you mean spool and C-clip elim., correct?



I see this becoming more of an issue, as the stockers are more prone to cracking & splitting the crossover with current HP/TQ levels and age. Anything goes though...?? My thoughts would be stock crossover location, turbo location, downpipe location, etc.



I agree...

I actually have no say, or pull as to what happens with the class anymore. I just don't want to see it go away due to lack of participation. I just can't understand how I see soooo many cars that meet the rules but don't run the class.


K.

I agree with everything you said.

Stock appearing headers, yes! I didn't mean like out 1 3/4's that would be overkill.

I would love this class!

[NCTURBOS]

Originally Posted by Kip

Keith, you will have to help me with my memory. Here is what I remember, there had been cars run in TSS with Southside style drop brackets at several GS Natioanls. No rule saying you could not do this. Then the year we are talking about Bill Thompson's car gets a debate started about this, I walk over ask what is going on and am told the brackets are a problem, at this time I remind everyone (using names of the racers that had used them in the past) that the brackets had been run in the past without question. A vote is taken in front of me and others and Bill is allowed in the TSS class. A little while later I see you walking away from Bill's trailer and I walk up and ask Bill what is up and he says you just told him he was out of TSS. Thats the best my memory can do except for being able to list the people above whos names I left out but will be glad to add them if needed.

Originally Posted by Thumper

To the best of my memory, that is exactly how it went down. I made it through tech after vote of racers, had car weighed, got back to add a few pounds and while doing so Keith walked up and informed me that a decision came down that I am disqualified from TSS. because of the south side style bars.

Now Keith has asked why only 3 cars show up to race? Damn Funny isn"t it.


ONE POINT, RULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, EVEN THE DAY OF QUALIFICATIONS, BETTER NOT READ BETWEEN THE LINES, IT CAN GET YOU ONE DAY.

Let's start off with plain black-n-white. Sometimes you need to take words for their literal meaning. In this case the GSCA rules for the class, in particular:

Originally Posted by GSCA TSS rules

Factory stock rear suspension locations required...

The above is the current rule, and was the rule for the 2006 event, which is in question here... Yes (3) events ago... In your quotes above you'll notice that I highlighted a few lines in red. Kinda incriminating I think. In one line you're admitting to running illegal drop brackets, and in the other admitting to reading between the lines trying to find the "grey area" instead of taking the words for what they actually say... Their literal meaning...

I know what you're gonna say... Well so-n-so got away with running them last year, or the year before, or so on. But we were dealing with 2006, not a previous year. We were dealing with your car, not someone else's. If your buddy gets away with robbing a 7-11 store today, does it make it legal for you to rob one tomorrow... It just so happens it was caught in 2006, on your car. You'll notice the rules now also state:

Originally Posted by GSCA TSS rules

**All control arms must use the factory mounting location. No bolt-in or welded relocators allowed. (ie. Southside bars).**

This was the way to clarify the rule so no one else would "read between the lines". Oh by the way, out of the (11) cars in TSS for 2006, everyone else understood the rule in question.

Now onto... making me out as the bad guy here for enforcing the rules. Remember when we were teching the heads-up classes and your car wasn't in line? Who came and found you in the pits, offered help, and told you we would wait for you to join us? When (2) of your class peers brought your control arms to my attention you could have easily been DQ'd right then and there. At that point I offered a vote to help keep you in the class. I also made it clear that the vote was for the 2006 race only and that your control arms were illegal, with more clarity in the rules to come. You agreed, we voted, and only one other racer voted against you. At that point we were the only class left in tech, everyone else already weighed their cars in... Unfortunately I over-stepped my authority in offering a vote, which is why I then had to DQ you after weigh-in. Amazingly I had other racers in different classes and people I didn't even know patting me on the back for offering you a chance with the vote. I can tell you no-one else would have...

Do I hate the way it turned out, yes. Do I regret the way I handled trying to get your car into the race... Not until I read your posts.


K.

[Kip]

Kieth, First to clear a few things up. I do not dislike you or am I trying to make you out to be the bad guy. I spoke to you on the phone before and you seem to be a fine guy.
Now onto this thread. I do not think it is right that you highlight things in my post and then in Bill's post and then present your arguement like they were said by the same person. Also I do not see the "Kinda Incriminating" from my statement, remeber I brought up the TSS happenings after you said you wanted larger pictures of Clay's car so you could look for the "Grey Areas". The point of my post was the grey areas will get you in trouble.
Your 7-11 analogy is not correct as robbing aka stealing is clearly against the law. The Southside brackets in question were bolted into the stock suspension locations, thus using the stock suspension locations. Does not even seem like a grey area to me. To me the rule was added to in later years not clarified as I am sure you will want to state. By the way I would not say "so and so got away with running them" because I do not feel anybody did anything wrong by running them before so there was no "got away with" , they and the peers of the previuos year must have not had a problem with the brackets or it would have been an issue in the years previous.
As for the people "patting you on the back for offering the vote", thats great as I am sure they thought the same thing I did that justice prevailed when the people of the the class spoke. Who made the final decision anyways? Just for your knowledge when you say "no one else would have offered you a one (vote)", there has been offered vote on other subject by RRAs before so I do not know why you feel that way.
I am sorry that the last posts have made you change your mind about trying to give a racer a fair shake but if that is how you feel it is up to you. I wish this would have stayed where it was before since it started from your looking for the "grey area" comment.
Take care ( and I will still mean it no matter what you post)
Kip

[Thumper]

Keith,

I am holding NO grudges here, my intentions are to address "grey areas" in the rules. I am just trying to share my personal experience which it seems to ruffle feathers. I do remember you finding me to assist in getting my car teched since it was not able to be moved, and it was appreciated. Unfortunately RRA's take the heat, I do not think of you as a bad guy at all.

My main point of all these posts, I do not want any racer to get DQed due to "grey areas". TSA is a new and great class, I do not want to see politics prevail.


Now, that this is in TSS posting, I will say a few things for that. Stroker motors are allowed and are being used, under 240cu in. It does cost a lot of mula to build and compete in this class and it has become a high doller race class with little payouts IMO. It is easier and more fun to compete in TSM, but now TSA came about and it will make people think. Factory appearing, excellent running, classic car, with good payouts. Very tempting class so lets just try to keep it simple.

Keith, I wish you the best in your build of a fine TSA buick.


Thanks
Bill