ok, how about putting it this way?

[tb3]

I know things can get heated from time to time concerning intercooler vs alky, but as long as everybody stays tactful, there can be some good info and ideas put out, especially to benifit the new guys that come in.

Maybe jerryl or somebody can do another poll and pose the question with a known value and goal of the car.

Put it like this:

We have a 85 hot air turbobuick with the engine and drivetrain in optimum running condition with no issues. There are no mods EXCEPT for:

1.Walbro 340 fp (or similiar) (hotwired)

2. adjustable fp regulator

3. 9" k&n cone air filter

4. adjustable wastegate

5. 160 thermostat

6. 86/87 ECM

7. Turbo tweakchip ( I say tt chip for no other reason than (to my knowledge), it gives the driver/tuner the most options to fine tune to his/her specific car.

8. and a good scan tool, of course

The question would be:
Which one would give you the most obvious hp increase (kick in the seat of the pants) throughout the rpm band. (which no doubt, is what most of the hotair owners are looking for, and on a tight budget, aren't we all?) Lets make it a given that the car would be optimely tuned for whichever ones installed

would it be...air to air intercooler (spearco type), or, alky kit?

be nice to get responses only from people that know. and hold off on all the "what ifs" if possible, we can "what if" ourselves to death on these cars before we even get them backed out of the garage.

and I guess I couldnt really respond since I haven't rode in a car with a hot air spearco type intercooler kit. but my guess would still be "alky" why? way more boost, no lag (ever), a slight octane increase, and slightly cooling the intake charge.



just a thought

[Jerryl]

Originally Posted by tb3

I know things can get heated from time to time concerning intercooler vs alky, but as long as everybody stays tactful, there can be some good info and ideas put out, ......

Per bold letters ..........
You are sure asking for a lot ..........

Originally Posted by tb3

..... and I guess I couldnt really respond since I haven't rode in a car with a hot air spearco type intercooler kit. but my guess would still be "alky" why? way more boost, no lag (ever), a slight octane increase, and slightly cooling the intake charge. .....

I am not sure if anyone can answer this, I sure as heck can't.
Don't think the people who have put down the performance numbers such as Turbo6X2, Boost231, Cool84, Lee, Dwayne, Boostmaster or Marka's ever ran an IC and than Alky on the same set-up, with the same tune, on the same day, at the same track!

I do think however that the Alky is superiror based on simulations and calcs.
Search for "Bruce" (RIP) and read his posts and findings on a few of the boards. He shared lots of data that can be analyzed.

The lag can be overcome, and HA cars can have lag as well, especially if the converter stall is not what you think it is.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by tb3

be nice to get responses only from people that know. and hold off on all the "what ifs" if possible, we can "what if" ourselves to death on these cars before we even get them backed out of the garage.

this should be interesting I wonder how many HA cars have actually run alky?? I can see the woulda, coulda, shoulda's lining up now

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by Jerryl

Per bold letters ..........
You are sure asking for a lot ..........



I am not sure if anyone can answer this, I sure as heck can't.
Don't think the people who have put down the performance numbers such as Turbo6X2, Boost231, Cool84, Lee, Dwayne, Boostmaster or Marka's ever ran an IC and than Alky on the same set-up, with the same tune, on the same day, at the same track!

I do think however that the Alky is superiror based on simulations and calcs.
Search for "Bruce" (RIP) and read his posts and findings on a few of the boards. He shared lots of data that can be analyzed.

The lag can be overcome, and HA cars can have lag as well, especially if the converter stall is not what you think it is.

Jerry, I've seen Bruce's name mentioned more than once with "RIP". Did something happen to him or did he leave the board?

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

this should be interesting I wonder how many HA cars have actually run alky?? I can see the woulda, coulda, shoulda's lining up now

Quite a few are running alky. Problem is most have either added an intercooler or gone with alky. No one that I'm aware of has run both separately. I've run an intercooler and alky at the same time but never alky by itself.

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by tb3

I know things can get heated from time to time concerning intercooler vs alky, but as long as everybody stays tactful, there can be some good info and ideas put out, especially to benifit the new guys that come in.

Maybe jerryl or somebody can do another poll and pose the question with a known value and goal of the car.

Put it like this:

We have a 85 hot air turbobuick with the engine and drivetrain in optimum running condition with no issues. There are no mods EXCEPT for:

1.Walbro 340 fp (or similiar) (hotwired)

2. adjustable fp regulator

3. 9" k&n cone air filter

4. adjustable wastegate

5. 160 thermostat

6. 86/87 ECM

7. Turbo tweakchip ( I say tt chip for no other reason than (to my knowledge), it gives the driver/tuner the most options to fine tune to his/her specific car.

8. and a good scan tool, of course

The question would be:
Which one would give you the most obvious hp increase (kick in the seat of the pants) throughout the rpm band. (which no doubt, is what most of the hotair owners are looking for, and on a tight budget, aren't we all?) Lets make it a given that the car would be optimely tuned for whichever ones installed

would it be...air to air intercooler (spearco type), or, alky kit?

be nice to get responses only from people that know. and hold off on all the "what ifs" if possible, we can "what if" ourselves to death on these cars before we even get them backed out of the garage.

and I guess I couldnt really respond since I haven't rode in a car with a hot air spearco type intercooler kit. but my guess would still be "alky" why? way more boost, no lag (ever), a slight octane increase, and slightly cooling the intake charge.



just a thought

If we're talking pump gas to pump gas it's hard to say. Running equal boost levels my money is on the intercooler.

I can say from personal experience that the intercooler's difference could be felt by 5psi or less. It definately fattens up the entire power curve.

Also, I'm tired of saying this, the intercooler and piping does not add to lag. Maybe theoretically but in real life there is absolutely no difference in lag going from no intercooler to a frontmount. This is a rumor that needs to stop.

[tb3]

i'm with you on the lag thing, but some do, per the application, as you've mentioned in other threads. lets take lag out of the picture (my bad)

we're running 93 pump gas, at the max allowable boost we can run per whichever application (with no knock)

[tb3]

I guess any kind of comparison is going to have its flaws, I guess what I'm getting at is that given these variables, was hoping that the educated guys that have been around could give a "no brainer" type of answer.

and for the record, I certainly don't consider myself one of the "educated guys" around here

[Grumpy]

"Cool" Bruce died last year ..

As far as gas why wouldn't ya run 93 with the Alky ??? We havent bought race gas for years !! The tune up stays the same street or racing .

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

"Cool" Bruce died last year ..

As far as gas why wouldn't ya run 93 with the Alky ??? We havent bought race gas for years !! The tune up stays the same street or racing .

Wow, sorry to hear that. I'll do a search to dig up the details...

Of course you would run 93 with alky.

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by tb3

I guess any kind of comparison is going to have its flaws, I guess what I'm getting at is that given these variables, was hoping that the educated guys that have been around could give a "no brainer" type of answer.

and for the record, I certainly don't consider myself one of the "educated guys" around here

Sorry, this wasn't aimed just at you, most of my frustration has come from other forums.

The problems I originally encountered was having the throttlebody before the turbo and 15' of intercooler plumbing. Once moved to the intake, the hesitation and lag problems were gone.

[tb3]

no offense taken at all my friend. would you happen to have a pic of your original pre turbo intercooler installation? I bet that looked like dr. octopus

I totally dig the pics of the hot air cars with the intercooler added to the traditional style turbo/tb location. way more interesting to look at than the loads of 86/87 engine pics

[boostmaster]

Originally Posted by tb3

i'm with you on the lag thing, but some do, per the application, as you've mentioned in other threads. lets take lag out of the picture (my bad)

we're running 93 pump gas, at the max allowable boost we can run per whichever application (with no knock)

Hands down alky, I don't now anyone runnin 24+ psi on pump with an intercooler alone.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by boostmaster

Hands down alky, I don't now anyone runnin 24+ psi on pump with an intercooler alone.

thats one way to look at it So are there any HA cars just running alky ???

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by boostmaster

Hands down alky, I don't now anyone runnin 24+ psi on pump with an intercooler alone.

But are they making more power with the alky?

[cool 84]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

thats one way to look at it So are there any HA cars just running alky ???

The only 11 second ones are doing it with alky.

[boostmaster]

Originally Posted by cool 84

But are they making more power with the alky?

Boost is power. I don't know about others but my 24 psi with alky will out run most intercooled set ups @ 18 psi without alky all things equal (I.E. turbo,timing,pump gas, etc). From my observations though I have'nt seen any gains running anything over 24 psi with alcohol alone. That my be the limit to my system though (nozzle).

[Dwayne]

Alky will give you the biggest bang per buck hands down........mute point.