Series II L67 Grand National??!!??

[xXch0dyXx]

Well, it took some pondering but i decided to remove the old school and step up to the new school 3.8

Last year my bearings in my 85 block took a $hit, after i just put a new tranny, cam, and 87 conversion on. Pissed me off pretty bad and decided i wanted something more reliable, this is what i ended up with...

im sure some of you will hate me, and think it was a bad move... to those i say come take a ride

head studs on STOCK l67 shortblock


ported L32 heads with stock valves


Fully built 4l60e with a vig l/u 3k stall


Engine on stand complete, has a very mild stattama ST2 cam


engine uses the Fbody upper/lower intake manifolds

headers and Y pipe in process

[xXch0dyXx]

first fit


complete except for IC tubing. i havent taken a completed pic yet, i will try to get one today


here are a couple teaser idling vids







I should be going to the track today, but i have no cage, and stock axles that i have a feeling might break

I will try to get vids on my runs, but most of them i am going to let out after the eigth

HUGE THANX TO TRIPLE EDGE PERFORMANCE!!!! They did the work on the car and tranny.

Feel free to post your thoughts, hopefully have the timeslips to sway the nay sayers later today

[87natl]

Love it, man!!!!!! Can't wait to hear your results.

I thought you were kidding when you first said you were going to do this. You'll have to give us a detailed breakdown so we can compare how it is performing to a similarly set up LC2.

[TurboDave]

I don't care what anybody says. I love it when people can think outside the box and still keep it Buick powered!!!!!!!!!

[87gta-turbo]

Buick/GM should be making that configuration NOW! (not to mention when the 4th gen fbodies were around.
Is that a RWD engine from a Fbody?
What mounts did you use?
Whats the deal w/ engine management/chip/ecm?

[ronbuick]

More info on this please ,

Ron

[bison]

Nice. Id be more worried about the 4L60 than the stock axles.

[wickedv6]

Awesome work, can you also post your combo, turbo, inj, computer etc...

thanks
Prasad

[Pronto]

I know Intense has gotten into the 8s with the 3800 in FWD config. This is very interesting.

[mikestertwo]

Nice work!! I want to see more pictures!!

[Trannyman95]

Hi Guys, I built the drivetrain/car so if there are questions that Cody cant help you out with just let me know. Being different is what it is all about sometimes! The potential of the S2 3800 is amazing with minor work and the drivability with the newer engine and pcm is vastly different from the original 3.8. Throttle responce is insane in this car and it feels stronger at HALF throttle than the old 3.8 did WOT with the same turbo and identical cam-minus being roller. The heads are such an improvment over the old ones and has a huge impact on this. I first but a S2 3800 in my 86 Cutlass back in 03 and a few years ago finally got my L67 swap in that finished. Here is the link to some pics of that car....

Trannymans Project Site

The 4L60E trans in both cars are built to handle low 10s so until either breaks it isnt a concern yet. The V6 style trans has a smaller input shaft than the LS1 cars but the seem to do very well in the 10-11 second range with a good build. For engine mounts I found that using Oldsmobile V8 mounts are almost a perfect fit to the block and how the engine sits in the frame. I use 1" spacers between the engine side mount and block and it comes out pretty close to where it should be with a little tweaking of hole grinding on the mount. You have to change the frame side mount from the original 3.8 to the Olds style also as they are different.

The mods are as follows.....
-Stock 98 L67 shortblock
-Ported 06 L26 NA heads
-60 lb/hr injectors
-Stattama Stg 2 turbo cam
-Stock 97 F-body 3800 intake manifold and throttle body
-LS1 MAF
-TE60 turbo, 4" inlet 2.5" outlet comp housing
-3" GN downpipe (Cody knows the brand), Modified for this engine arrangement
-Custom built forward swept log style headers. All 14ga stainless tubing 1 5/8" primaries going into 2" tube. Both side Y directly under the turbo flange
-Alky Control Alky injection
-Cartech style front mount intercooler
-Fully built 4L60E trans
-Vigilante 3K stall converter
-Hooker Catback exhaust
-98 F-body 3800 pcm
-Custom built wiring harness
-97 F-body dual electric fans

Thats all I can think of for now but should cover it.

[wickedv6]

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

Hi Guys, I built the drivetrain/car so if there are questions that Cody cant help you out with just let me know. Being different is what it is all about sometimes! The potential of the S2 3800 is amazing with minor work and the drivability with the newer engine and pcm is vastly different from the original 3.8. Throttle responce is insane in this car and it feels stronger at HALF throttle than the old 3.8 did WOT with the same turbo and identical cam-minus being roller. The heads are such an improvment over the old ones and has a huge impact on this. I first but a S2 3800 in my 86 Cutlass back in 03 and a few years ago finally got my L67 swap in that finished. Here is the link to some pics of that car....

Trannymans Project Site

The 4L60E trans in both cars are built to handle low 10s so until either breaks it isnt a concern yet. The V6 style trans has a smaller input shaft than the LS1 cars but the seem to do very well in the 10-11 second range with a good build. For engine mounts I found that using Oldsmobile V8 mounts are almost a perfect fit to the block and how the engine sits in the frame. I use 1" spacers between the engine side mount and block and it comes out pretty close to where it should be with a little tweaking of hole grinding on the mount. You have to change the frame side mount from the original 3.8 to the Olds style also as they are different.

The mods are as follows.....
-Stock 98 L67 shortblock
-Ported 06 L26 NA heads
-60 lb/hr injectors
-Stattama Stg 2 turbo cam
-Stock 97 F-body 3800 intake manifold and throttle body
-LS1 MAF
-TE60 turbo, 4" inlet 2.5" outlet comp housing
-3" GN downpipe (Cody knows the brand), Modified for this engine arrangement
-Custom built forward swept log style headers. All 14ga stainless tubing 1 5/8" primaries going into 2" tube. Both side Y directly under the turbo flange
-Alky Control Alky injection
-Cartech style front mount intercooler
-Fully built 4L60E trans
-Vigilante 3K stall converter
-Hooker Catback exhaust
-98 F-body 3800 pcm
-Custom built wiring harness
-97 F-body dual electric fans

Thats all I can think of for now but should cover it.

Thanks Awesome!!!, How much money are we looking at in parts including the harness and PCM?

Prasad

[xXch0dyXx]

trannyman knows the number better than i do on parts and labor, but ide say it ended up around 6500, but i sold about 3500 in parts out of the car, and still have the engine to sell

The car is unbelievably fast compared to the setup i had in my sig on 26psi, and the boost is only set to 17 psi right now. Leaving for the track shortly, but without a cage we are gonna get booted after the first pass

[klrv6]

I saw this over on regalgs and didn't want to steal your thunder here. Good work guys.

[87natl]

Cody, is that my old turbo on there? I've got it's twin that I had rebuilt and upgraded that I'm about to sell off next. It made the #'s in MY sig, if anyone want's to duplicate or IMROVE on your project, LOL!

My question is, how does that block compare to ours? How well will it handle the HP? Is it as strong? Stronger? Any mods to the mains or a girdle?

[bison]

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

Hi Guys, I built the drivetrain/car so if there are questions that Cody cant help you out with just let me know. Being different is what it is all about sometimes! The potential of the S2 3800 is amazing with minor work and the drivability with the newer engine and pcm is vastly different from the original 3.8. Throttle responce is insane in this car and it feels stronger at HALF throttle than the old 3.8 did WOT with the same turbo and identical cam-minus being roller. The heads are such an improvment over the old ones and has a huge impact on this. I first but a S2 3800 in my 86 Cutlass back in 03 and a few years ago finally got my L67 swap in that finished. Here is the link to some pics of that car....

Trannymans Project Site

The 4L60E trans in both cars are built to handle low 10s so until either breaks it isnt a concern yet. The V6 style trans has a smaller input shaft than the LS1 cars but the seem to do very well in the 10-11 second range with a good build. For engine mounts I found that using Oldsmobile V8 mounts are almost a perfect fit to the block and how the engine sits in the frame. I use 1" spacers between the engine side mount and block and it comes out pretty close to where it should be with a little tweaking of hole grinding on the mount. You have to change the frame side mount from the original 3.8 to the Olds style also as they are different.

The mods are as follows.....
-Stock 98 L67 shortblock
-Ported 06 L26 NA heads
-60 lb/hr injectors
-Stattama Stg 2 turbo cam
-Stock 97 F-body 3800 intake manifold and throttle body
-LS1 MAF
-TE60 turbo, 4" inlet 2.5" outlet comp housing
-3" GN downpipe (Cody knows the brand), Modified for this engine arrangement
-Custom built forward swept log style headers. All 14ga stainless tubing 1 5/8" primaries going into 2" tube. Both side Y directly under the turbo flange
-Alky Control Alky injection
-Cartech style front mount intercooler
-Fully built 4L60E trans
-Vigilante 3K stall converter
-Hooker Catback exhaust
-98 F-body 3800 pcm
-Custom built wiring harness
-97 F-body dual electric fans

Thats all I can think of for now but should cover it.

I would expect mid to low 10's first time out with that combo. The turbo is the limitation. Thats why i mentioned the trans. Any particular reason you went with the 3 bolt setup? Seems like it wouldnt matter since the headers were fab'd for the application anyway. Maybe the turbo would be too far forward with the tangential 4 bolt? This seems like a very promising change over to a lot of guys on here. You should look into mass producing the headers and selling short blocks ready to go. You could do a lot of business. Id offer forged pistons though. Those shortblocks are so plentiful it could turn out to be a really good thing if you decided to do some kits for the guys on here. Id feel much safer running an L67 vs a girdled early rear drive any day. The blocks are so much better. Id guess with some pistons mid 9's in a 3500lb car would be very reliable. In rear drive configuration this could easily surpass the current numbers early engines are putting up. Mid 8's seem very realistic. Anyone try running solid lifters in an L67 yet?

[xXch0dyXx]

Originally Posted by 87natl

Cody, is that my old turbo on there? I've got it's twin that I had rebuilt and upgraded that I'm about to sell off next. It made the #'s in MY sig, if anyone want's to duplicate or IMROVE on your project, LOL!

My question is, how does that block compare to ours? How well will it handle the HP? Is it as strong? Stronger? Any mods to the mains or a girdle?

yup, sure is that little TE60 and i dont feel it is holding back this setup at ALL. Im only running 17-18 psi on the turbo, so its not even working yet.

will have vids and times up from the track shortly

[Trannyman95]

Well we did get a chance to make some runs tonight, 3 runs letting off after the 1/8th and 3 full quarter mile runs which the first two were not what should have been but the track went south after a while. PLEASE keep in mind that ALL of these runs were with minimal cool down, ZERO track prep and driven literally straight from the street in full street trim, pump gas, didnt even look at air pressure in the drag radials just pulled her up to make some passes just like on the street true to its form! The best 1/8th mile run we got was a 7.201 @ 96.58 with a 1.65 short time. There is no tach other than the stock digital one which is worthless so stalling up to a certain rpm isnt in the picture yet until we redo the gauges and get a good tach in the car. The first quarter mile run was going to be the last run we made of the night BUT a car in front of me must have left some water on the track and I launched it hard and it just went up in smoke so I had to back out of it and was a bit mad so I just made the run anywas to obtain an 11.8 @ 120ish. The next run I was a bit affraid to launch the car hard so I nursed it off the line with a 1.9 60' and ran an 11.58 @ 121.5. The last run I launched it a little hard but not full throttle as the track was closing and no more runs and I wanted to bring home at least an 11.3 for the night...... I got a 1.755 short time and ran an 11.357 @ 121.40 . The last two runs were hot lapped with zero cool down time. I know if I had the opportunity to launch it harder with the confidence that it wouldnt spin it should have gone in the 11.2-11.1 range but we are VERY pleased with how it did the first time to the track and only running since this past Saturday, so not a great deal of time dialing in the tune. Every run tonight was on the same tune, alky was on but really not needed and more for insurance than anything. Boost is around the 17-18 mark, timing is a steady 18 deg and AFR is mid 11s the whole run. With minimal tuning this car should dip into the 10s no problem. Because of the series 2 3800 piston design I dont want to push the boost too hard because the height from the top of the piston to the top ring land is much shorter than the old 3.8 pistons and dont take much to destroy and we want it to stay together for a while and get some time in the car. When a new engine with forged pistons is ready to go in then we will crank up the boost and see what she can do! Below is a pic of the best 1/8th and 1/4 timeslips and also a vid of the 11.3 run.



85GNQtr72308.flv - Video - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

[Darth Fiero]

Originally Posted by wickedv6

Thanks Awesome!!!, How much money are we looking at in parts including the harness and PCM?

Prasad

What's up, Prasad? It's been a long time...

Anyway Cody and Dave beat me to this swap which was something I've wanted to do for at least 5 years -- but never had the money to buy the GN in the first place. But I'm glad someone I know did it and I'm happy to see the end results.

Kudo's to Cody and Dave for getting this thing done and to the track and putting down some impressive times its first time out. I think the Series 2 3800 could be the next big thing for the GN community -- at least for those wanting to take the technilogical leap in updating their cars. I know it is the FIRST thing I am going to do once I get a GN. I've already done it to my Fiero...

-ryan

[87natl]

Wow! Fantastic job, guys!!! Hitting those times at that boost level, you guys could crack the 10's while staying under 20 psi!!! Hell of a place to "start" this experiment. Congrats, and keep us updated.

[CTX-SLPR]

How are ya'll getting around the 1 bar MAP in the L36 ECM?

Any pictures of the oil pan to frame area and how tight was that? Which pan did you use?

[wickedv6]

Originally Posted by Darth Fiero

What's up, Prasad? It's been a long time...

Anyway Cody and Dave beat me to this swap which was something I've wanted to do for at least 5 years -- but never had the money to buy the GN in the first place. But I'm glad someone I know did it and I'm happy to see the end results.

Kudo's to Cody and Dave for getting this thing done and to the track and putting down some impressive times its first time out. I think the Series 2 3800 could be the next big thing for the GN community -- at least for those wanting to take the technilogical leap in updating their cars. I know it is the FIRST thing I am going to do once I get a GN. I've already done it to my Fiero...

-ryan

Hey what's up Ryan
Busy as usual, you know how it is, too many projects and too little time. It's funny now and then people tell me how they saw a Fiero with 3800 set up in it, more time than not I know they are talking about you.

I am also glad to see someone accomplish this task, I know that the 3800 is the new and improved version of the old 3.8. I am just wondering how far we can push this stock block. I already have few 3800 gen II SC motors on hand. Maybe it's time to start collecting them.

Great job guys and congrats, very impressive runs. Please keep us posted

Prasad

[Trannyman95]

How are ya'll getting around the 1 bar MAP in the L36 ECM?

Any pictures of the oil pan to frame area and how tight was that? Which pan did you use?

These pcms dont look at the map sensor unless the maf sensor fails, then its moreless a failsafe sensor to run in speed density so the car will at least run. All fueling is strictly referrenced off of the output of the maf sensor unless it fails or is unplugged. The oil pan I use is for an F-body car which fits the frame very well. There is probably about 1/4 to 1/2" in a few spots of clearance so there isnt room to move it forward without modifying the pan but it sits in a good spot and wont hit.

[ijames]

Great job, guys!

[turbows6]

That sounds like too much work considering you could have run faster for less money using off the shelf parts.

[Adam Connell]

Originally Posted by turbows6

That sounds like too much work considering you could have run faster for less money using off the shelf parts.

IM just going to simply reply... ARE YOU SERIOUS?

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

grats!!!

what boost ?? what cam?

to clear some up guys

the L36 and L67 and L32 (the series III 3.8s) shars the same block

L36 = in Camaros 9.5 CR

L67 and 32 = 8.5 CR

L67 head ar diffeent in olny that the injector bosses are in the head and not the intakes like the L36 motors

I have a L67 block in my car

the mot have gone High 8's on stock block and stock cranks.... most upgrade to the seires III rods ($250 for hte set lol) and Diamond pistons....

rest is CAM and Heads and tune

I run 20 psi in my car to get my times, 2 fuel pumps and i'm upgrading to 79lb injectors

[CTX-SLPR]

Originally Posted by Trannyman95

These pcms dont look at the map sensor unless the maf sensor fails, then its moreless a failsafe sensor to run in speed density so the car will at least run. All fueling is strictly referrenced off of the output of the maf sensor unless it fails or is unplugged. The oil pan I use is for an F-body car which fits the frame very well. There is probably about 1/4 to 1/2" in a few spots of clearance so there isnt room to move it forward without modifying the pan but it sits in a good spot and wont hit.

Depends on the PCM unless all the F-body stuff doesn't have the VE tables enabled like some of the FWD stuff does. Using 98 F-body cable throttle PCM? Big discussion going on over on the HPT board about it and the plans for HPT to unlock the switch so we can turn them on and start tuning them.

Would you mind posting some pictures of how you did the cooling system? From my L67 W-body days I'd like to see how you got the cooling system all linked up with that manifold.

[CTX-SLPR]

Originally Posted by turbows6

That sounds like too much work considering you could have run faster for less money using off the shelf parts.

When you have to find a new block things get a bit more open for other ideas. I bet he spent no more money on this than he would have on a 109 to get a turbo crank, pistons, and convert it over to an intercooled car. He's also running faster on a milder tune and less boost than a lot of more modified cars do and there is a lot left in it.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally Posted by CTX-SLPR

Depends on the PCM unless all the F-body stuff doesn't have the VE tables enabled like some of the FWD stuff does. Using 98 F-body cable throttle PCM? Big discussion going on over on the HPT board about it and the plans for HPT to unlock the switch so we can turn them on and start tuning them.

Would you mind posting some pictures of how you did the cooling system? From my L67 W-body days I'd like to see how you got the cooling system all linked up with that manifold.

its hit or miss with the Fbody some car need the VE tuning (for just driving around) and some don't

the VE table maxs at 0 psi so for boost it pointless anyway and you cant use othe map senors cuase they don't read like they should in the PCM

tune for the max maf and add fuel with the PE tables works great

the cooling system, since he is using the fbody intakes...... work like it would on an fbody...... enter front of upper intake and out the water pump area, not had and no custom work

the intakes all mate up to to the heads......

[Dr.drivability]

Very nice work guys! Gotta know, cold a/c and cruise??? I really hate it when guys gut this stuff. I think it ruins the whole fast with class thing. Dave

[xXch0dyXx]

Originally Posted by turbows6

That sounds like too much work considering you could have run faster for less money using off the shelf parts.

this is a very untrue statement.

Look at those mods, what GN do you know running very low 11's that has a te60, 3k stall, ported heads, and a VERY mild cam. Not to mention the cars tires werent even checked, not air was put in my air bags, alky barely even on, and only running 17-18psi. This car isnt even tuned yet, its just had a few runs logged and minor changes.

Did i mention it was 1.5 hour drive straight into the staging lanes?

I will agree that it may be alot of work if you have a great running car, but when you need a new engine already, why not go with one that is stronger from the factory and easily available?? How many GN guys have run 9's or 8's on a stock bottom end?

sorry to go on a tangent, but if i wanted to run fast times we would have done some track prep, upped the boost, and dialed the car in perfectly b4 we went. We just wanted some shakedown passes since it had only been running a few days

[xXch0dyXx]

Originally Posted by Dr.drivability

Very nice work guys! Gotta know, cold a/c and cruise??? I really hate it when guys gut this stuff. I think it ruins the whole fast with class thing. Dave

i dont have the ac connected right now because we didnt have time to est it up, although i took it off when i still had the gn motor in the car because i very seldom use ac. i may hook it up later on, but i dont drive it when its 90, or when it 30 so i havent really thought too hard about it yet


thanx for all the replies guys, trannyman worked extremely hard on this project and its great for both of us to hear some feedback and get some good results

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

4l60e can hold a trans a brake if the right people biuld it

[FJM568]

So are the front drive blocks and the F-body block the same??? And what bellhousing pattern is needed to bolt up to it??? Let's say I wanted to swap one of these(NA though) in place of a 4.3L in an S-10 with a 5 speed, could I use the 4.3L bellhousing or would I need to find a different one???

Oops...Sorry to hijack the thread...Great job on the conversion...I had always thought of doing something like this. Just not enough time and money. Get the shakedowns out of the way and really hammer on it to see what kind of times you can get!!!