Oil ZDDP supplement

[Sal Lubrano]

Do you think this stuff is any good?

eBay Motors: ZPlus ZDDP Engine Oil Additive Zinc and Phosphorus (item 180152917927 end time Sep-04-07 12:47:55 PDT)

[turbo nasty]

Kirbans just started selling this stuff and was in there last news letter heres a cut n paste from it


Kirban Inner Circle 08/21/07-II


IMPORTANT NEWS THAT WILL INTEREST EVERY TURBO OWNER

We are proud to be introducing a brand new product
of interest to every Turbo Buick owner...

ZDDPlus

Richard Clark will be speaking on this important
subject at the Sunday Night Reunion banquet. He has also been
gracious enough to donate one 2-ounce bottle of ZDDP
concentrate to every adult attending the Sunday night
Reunion Banquet. As you can imagine, the potential of this
product is enormous and you are reading about it here
first. Plus, as an Inner Circle member, you are getting
a special introductory price! We recommend you tell your
friends and you can post this information on any of the
various forums. Currently, we are the main
distributor to the performance car market.

To learn more about ZDDP, simply go on the
internet. Keep in mind, some of the information
concerning solutions will not be correct. For example:
GM no longer sells EOS. It may also be true that
certain racing single-weight oils have ZDDP in it, but
it will NOT be the proper dosage for your turbo engine.

We have included special ordering information in this
Inner Circle mailing. We are only taking orders by email
on this product to the email address listed below. Orders
will ship the week of August 27th. However, we will not
charge your credit until we process your order.

Richard has gone to great lengths to make this project happen.

It is a well-known fact among engine rebuilders and
mechanics, older engines (especially pre-1988)
that have flat tappet setups require a well-known
oil additive called "ZDDP." The additive ZDDP is made
up of Phosphorus, Sulfur, and Zinc. By using the
proper amount of these three chemicals, it makes ZDDP.
This additive has been the most effective extreme
pressure additive found in quality motor oil for
nearly 70 years. However, in recent years, this additive
has slowly been removed from the various motor oils you
can buy at the local parts store for your Turbo Regal.

For that matter, this additive is needed by not just
the Turbo Regals but all of the older performance cars.

ZDDP is a surface modifier. It modifies bearing and
journal surface characteristics to prevent metal-to-metal
contact. Under the right conditions of heat and pressure,
the zinc in the ZDDP actually plates over the contact
surface and provides a sacrificial coating. As it breaks
down, it dissipates back into the oil solution and remains in
suspension until the right conditions arise and the
process starts over again. This reduces the tendency
of parts to scuff and gall under heavy-loaded
boundary lubrication situations.

Camshafts and lifters found in high-performance
engines definitely fit this category due to high
velocities and accelerations required to open and
close valves many times per second.

This condition is also found in the piston wrist
pins. In other words, this description clearly fits
the characteristics of our Turbo Regals engines.

Normal amounts of this additive of ZDDP in 1988
API grade SG oils was in excess of 0.12%.
The API grade of oil specified for our Turbo Regal's
in 1987 was SF. SF oil had ZDDP concentrations in
excess of 0.15%.

Until recently it was considered normal to add a
bottle of GM EOS to these types of oil for engine
break-in. However, recently GM has discontinued EOS
from their product line, making it a moot point.

Upon recent testing of a sample of EOS, we found the
concentration was 0.71% by weight. Since EOS came in a
16-ounce bottle, this means to boost a modern day oil
to protect pre-1988 engines intended for normal
driving, it would require two bottles of the 16-ounce EOS.
This is a costly investment each time you do an oil change!

Now that the EPA requires new car manufacturers to
guarantee catalytic converters for over 100,000 miles,
the use of such a product would most likely void new
car warranties. Newer cars with roller rocker assemblies
do not need ZDDP.

A product such as this would probably have to carry a
warning on the label stating *OFF ROAD USE ONLY*. With
the new EPA guidelines for oil manufacturing and
grading, it is clear that without using exotic
aftermarket oils or diesel oils, currently there really
is no good choice of what to use in older cars
that require ZDDP to protect the engine internals.

There are still some single-weight oils that contain
various amounts of ZDDP for Turbo Regal engines, but
being a single-weight oil is not what is required in most
performance engines pre-1988.

Richard Clark has packaged the proper concentration
of the ZDDP formula for a typical pre-1988 engine,
put in a ready-to-use two-ounce bottle. The proper amount
specifically for a five-quart engine.

Richard expects to have the legal issues resolved and
exact correct wording on the bottles by early fall.

In the meantime, we are able to offer introductory
sample-style bottles in various packaged amounts to
accommodate your needs.

Because of our close association with Richard Clark
and his various companies, we are the main supplier
of this highly sought-after product.
Richard has been working on this project for most of
this current year. He has a number of the various
other marketed additives analyzed and determined NONE
have the proper amount of ZDDP in it for a normal
five-quart engine requiring API SF spec oil.

At our upcoming Reunion event, Richard will be giving a
presentation on this important subject and will be
presenting test results from a major independent
petroleum testing lab on oil and oil additives that
are commonly available.

Remember, one single two-ounce bottle will treat a
regular five-quart engine, such as the Turbo Regal.

You have to ask yourself... how important is the
internals of your Turbo Regal engine?

Some of you probably own other pre-1988 performance cars.
This product will work on ALL GM-Ford-Chrysler performance
engines. The list of potential buyers is endless.

This additive is virtually impossible to find in its
pure form. In very limited amounts, it can be found in
some oils and additives but this gives you the choice of
using any premium oil (this includes any synthetic and
viscosity) that you may choose.

Currently, there is no limit on how many you can
purchase at this special introductory price.

However, you must email your order. Include your name,
how many you want to order, credit card information.
Email your order to the following email address:

zddplus@kirbanperformance.com




#7176 - Single Two-Ounce Bottle of ZDDPlus $8.95

#7177 - Four-Pack of the Two-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlus $28 /four-pack

#7178 - Six-Pack of the Two-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlus $30 / six-pack

NOTE: This product must be shipped separately. We cannot include it
with
anything else you may order. It can only be shipped UPS Ground to the
US.
PLEASE NOTE: this is being offered as a special item to a limited
market.
It will not bear its final labeling and it will not be in its final
retail
packaging. This means that the normal warnings and cautions that
usually
accompany additives and chemicals will not actually be on the product.
In order to buy this product, you must respond by e-mail
and include a copy of the following notices and a statement
that you have read and understand the information.

We will not be taking orders over the phone for this
item at this time. You must email your order to:

zddplus@kirbanperformance.com

[aminga]

Would love to see an oil analysis on this before plunking down $'s

[87GN_70GS]

EOS is being sold by AC-Delco, part# 10-106
New GM part # 12371532

[GNocide]

Originally Posted by aminga

Would love to see an oil analysis on this before plunking down $'s

there was one at the kirban reunion by Richard clark


every question and angle and comparison about all the additives and diesel oil was covered

it was very informative.

[GNX243]

Below is a portion of the literature passed out last night at the Kirban Reunion. I only copied the portion dealing with concentrations (see top of chart) of ZDDP sources as someone asked that question. Of course, to properly use this chart, you should know the concentration of Zn & P in the oil you are using. There have been at least two lists of those on this site already so if you do not know, check them out.

[GNocide]

Originally Posted by GNX243

Below is a portion of the literature passed out last night at the Kirban Reunion. I only copied the portion dealing with concentrations (see top of chart) of ZDDP sources as someone asked that question. Of course, to properly use this chart, you should know the concentration of Zn & P in the oil you are using. There have been at least two lists of those on this site already so if you do not know, check them out.

yes and what people need to know that were not there is
the .18 on the right side of the chart is what is needed to get motor oil back to 1987 standards.

look how many ounces of eos is needed

[Brer Rabbit]

I thought the main reason for running the additives was for protection of hydrauic flat tappet camshafts. Just about everyone is changing over to roller cams, so whats the benefit for guys in my boat? I have just over 4,000 miles and everything is fine so far.

[87gta-turbo]

I guess its appropriate to post in this thread.
All the additives put in the engine oil are time/use activated if you change your oil too frequently your just draining the benefit into the catch pan.
I know there are alot of folks that like that golden oil look at all times but trust me its better to leave the oil in there for its designed life span.
Especially if you are using a quality oil with additives might as well let them work.

Source: LN Engineering.


....This also includes changing the oil too often or not often enough. Against conventional wisdom, engine wear decreases as oil ages to a certain extent, which means that changing your oil more frequently actually causes engine wear; these findings were substantiated by studies conducted by the auto manufacturers and petroleum companies, leading to drain intervals increased from 3,000mi to 5,000-7,500mi in most domestic vehicles. It has been suggested that no more than six months or 7500mi should be observed between service intervals and vehicles driven in more demanding conditions should be serviced more frequently, rather than based off of extremely long drain intervals recommended by European manufacturers, some in excess of two years and 15,000 mi. Vehicles with track time or sustained high oil temperatures or RPMs should have their oil changed after every event. Vehicles subjected to very short drives or sustained operation in heavy traffic should indeed be serviced more often. Regular used oil analysis is the best way to determine ideal drain intervals for your driving habits. With this knowledge in hand, using a quality motor oil with proper filtration and regular service is the best thing to do for your engine and to protect your investment.

[GNX243]

I am not a tribologist and cannot cite oil additive's chemical or physical characteristics, but I did attend Richard Clark's presentation Sunday night and it did appear he spent a lot of time studying the utilization of zinc diakyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in automobile engines. Among the comments (if I remember this correctly) was that ZDDP is sacrificial in that it plates out on parts, is broken up, reformulates and is used again. However, there was a life span (used up). It would appear to me that additives would similarly degrade/react with contaminants and the longer it is used, the less efficacious the product.

With regard to ZDDP, he advised that the optimum amount was 0.12% but because of its degredation over the recommended use interval, 0.18% was the concentration to be achieved.

[Tom Walker]

did they advise on oil change intervals? maybe longer than 3k miles?

[Brer Rabbit]

Did Richard Clark explain what are the parts that need the additive he was talking about? I ask because theres been a ton of info on this subject posted on this board, and I was wondering if he has conflicting opinions.

[GNX243]

From what I recall, parts rubbing against one another-cams, rocker arms...where there is a sliding surface.
He clearly said that modern oils are excellent for modern cars...the best there ever was. However, for our car...

[ijames]

Does that chart assume no ZDDP in the oil the additive is being added to, or does it assume the current maximum for automotive oil (which I can't remember offhand but I think is about 0.1-ish)?

[cpac]

Lets Hear It From The Engine Builders .....dls...rpe..etc

[GNX243]

Carl,
From my reading it assumes no Zn/P. However, prior threads show oils & Zn/P concentrations so you need to research your oil. What the chart is trying to show is that the concentration of ZDDP in ZDDPlus is higher than in other products for use in comparing cost.

What is interesting is the other carriers along with ZDDP in all of the products since none are 100% ZDDP...are they synergistic, additive, antagonistic or do they adversly impact other lubrication processes.

[Brer Rabbit]

Originally Posted by GNX243

From what I recall, parts rubbing against one another-cams, rocker arms...where there is a sliding surface.
He clearly said that modern oils are excellent for modern cars...the best there ever was. However, for our car...

So when Richard Clark said "our cars" did he mean stock or rebuilt motors that have not been upgraded with hydraulic roller or solid roller cams and lifters?

[HellOnWheels]

How is it that the EPA banned these chemicals from motor oils and yet they can still be bought in a "different" can or name??


HOW

[HellOnWheels]

What about "MOA" it was a thread topic on here some time back and seemed it was the best out there for maintaining good wear factors in an engine?

HOW

[GNX243]

EPA did not ban these additives from motor oil. EPA required a longer cat life from the mfg's and they in turn required the change to comply with the longer warranty. I've forgotten the exact life but I seem to recall something like 120,000 miles by 2012.
A salient question that was not addressed was the oil change interval.
And there was no mention of engine mods...how could there be? Only had an hour.

[aminga]

How much Boron does it have.

[lazaris]

Originally Posted by Brer Rabbit

I thought the main reason for running the additives was for protection of hydrauic flat tappet camshafts. Just about everyone is changing over to roller cams, so whats the benefit for guys in my boat? I have just over 4,000 miles and everything is fine so far.

Its basically any place where there is extreme pressure or metal to metal contact when the zinc comes into play. Thrust bearing, cam sensor gear,cyl bore etc etc.

[GNocide]

tribology
im not a tribologist either but i probably understand more now about it then 90% of the internet .

[Brer Rabbit]

Originally Posted by lazaris

Its basically any place where there is extreme pressure or metal to metal contact when the zinc comes into play. Thrust bearing, cam sensor gear,cyl bore etc etc.

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

[GNocide]

Originally Posted by Brer Rabbit

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

6 major points inside the engine will fail after the cam
rockers/push rods/ wrist pins are soon after that

[lazaris]

Originally Posted by Brer Rabbit

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

Thats where there is the most thus showing up first.

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by aminga

Would love to see an oil analysis on this before plunking down $'s

here's an analysis:
i just thought i would help to clarify a few things about the use of ZDDP in our (TR's) engines and answer a few questions. in the last several months I have spent thousands of dollars having tests done on all types of oil and additives to see what was really going on and to sort out the facts---------after contacting and working with several testing labs I have gravitated to one that seems to be easy to work with and actually specializes in testing petroleum products---------they can do the tests that are specified by API and OEM's according to accepted standards and procedures--------i am going to be posting some of these tests as they relate to answering questions------i am not going to post for the purpose of denegrating other products----------attached to this post is a test done recently on pure ZDDP concentrate (as is used in ZDDPlus), also in this particular test is included a test of GM EOS and STP---------even though i trust the lab i usually prefer to do the tests blind------meaning that i don't tell them what they are testing i just label the samples with a code--------this means that on this particular chart the RED identifiers are added by me AFTER i get the test back---------to understand what these numbers really mean you have to consider dosing ratios as well as ratios of zinc to phosphorus---------the z to p ratio of ZPlus is close to EOS which is really the reference standard for EP additives and is the same ratio originally specified for API oils containing large amounts of ZDDP--------the STP has a much lower ratio of p to z----this lack of adequate phosphorus has a twofold effect---------reduces the effectiveness of the z&p combination while allowing it to be marketed to the general market--------its the phos. that they don't want in the cats-----the z has little effect--------unfortunately without the right ratio of z to p the ZDDP doesn't serve its intended purpose--------while i am not a chemical engineer i do know that the ratio of z to p in ZDDP is a fixed ratio of the ZDDP molecule. The odd ratio in STP creates reasonable doubt that all the zinc is actually from ZDDP. Odds are that it contains a trace amount of ZDDP for advertising purposes and additional zinc from some other compound--------it clearly is no substitute for EOS for break-in or fortifying newer grades of oils like API SM------the concentration of ZDDP in ZPlus is much higher overall than EOS but this has to be considered in light that EOS comes in a 16 oz bottle and ZPlus comes in a 4 oz bottle--------there is twice the amount of ZDDP in ZPlus than there is in EOS per bottle (8times more concentrated)----this allows for the proper amount of ZDDP to be added to a 5 quart oil change with much less carrier oil being added (1.5 oz)---------it takes two bottles of EOS to bring the levels of SM oil to 1987 SF standards and this means that there is nearly a quart of unknown carrier oil added in the process-------in a few days I intend to have a web site up to clarify and explain just how important these issues are for older cars..................RC

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by 87GN_70GS

EOS is being sold by AC-Delco, part# 10-106
New GM part # 12371532

GM part # for EOS is 1052367---------12371532 is the AC delco part number for the same product---------BOTH are discontinued as of mid july and the system has pretty much emptied out---------why can only be speculated--------the original EOS came in a white bottle and was labeled "Engine Oil Supplement Concentrate" and was replaced about 12 years ago with the SAME contents in a black bottle renamed "E.O.S. Assembly Lubricant"---------my guess is that years ago it was suggested to add to oil as a supplement and as cars evolved into designs that depended less on EP additives and as smog requirements tightened GM didn't want to encourage continued use of the product for anything but engine break-in---------the total elimination of the product is a mystery to us all---------apparently the general wants us all in new cars.................RC

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by Brer Rabbit

I thought the main reason for running the additives was for protection of hydrauic flat tappet camshafts. Just about everyone is changing over to roller cams, so whats the benefit for guys in my boat? I have just over 4,000 miles and everything is fine so far.

its probably true that you and all your friends have changed their cams to rollers-------sensible idea along with the turbo, intercooler, TQ convertor, heads, injectors, exhaust etc-----BUT there are a lot of guys out there with near bone stock cars that get driven-------somehow i just can't see a guy with a low mileage or mint GNX GN or TR doing a cam replacement on a mint original car just so he can safely use modern SM oil---------in addition to the cost of the cam i can't imagine how much that would devalue the car overall for most buyers-------besides while it is true that the cam is the most affected it is also true that virtually anywhere in the engine where metal rubs against metal, and there is no pressurized oiling like there is at the crank bearings, this will be a problem--------this would include but not be limited to places like pushrod tips, rocker arms and shafts, valve tips, wrist pins, timing chains--------the facts are clear-------the extremely low amount of EP additives in SM oil is certain death to older engines-------why haven't we seen as much of it as might be expected??--------while the specification for SM oil was introduced in 2004 it didn't really start hitting the shelves till second quarter this year--------probably to give the oem's time to respond to it in their designs---------i first saw it appear about two months ago while SL was dominant-------a check at Walmart this last week showed that virtually the entire inventory has changed to SM in a very short time period-----a check of several other auto parts stores showed the same turnover--------while SL had reductions of ZDDP compared to SJ SH SG and so forth with SM the level has finally dropped to the point where it will no longer provide adequate protection for our cars--------just wait till the next grade-----guess it will be SN-------its almost certain that ZDDP will be non existant in the version--------perhaps some other additive may surface but to date the only thing that looks promising is Boron and it is in its infancy and needs alot of testing and refinement--------and if it proves to be good for older cars i seriously doubt much testing is gonna be done on antiques like we care about--------if you really want to do some research and study things like proper dosing and the effects of ZDDP and its variants you should read a couple papers-------- an american study published by the SAE and a japanese study conducted by Nippon Oil--------these studies are the result of tests done on many fleet cars in police and taxi service over millions of miles---------According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087, operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, “subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic”--------by the way, two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair...............RC

[hemity]

Was the STP test on the blue or red?

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by hemity

Was the STP test on the blue or red?

i did both of them--------the zinc and phos was the same-----if i remember correctly there was quite a difference in the viscosity-----------i recently had someone bring me one of the old metal cans with the pop off top and it will probably be part of a future test.............RC

[turbo nasty]

I have a couple of the old metal pull tab GM EOS cans. Wonder what the levels are in that

[Chrisk]

I hope its not some kind of Slick 50 B.S.

[GNocide]

Originally Posted by chrisk

I hope its not some kind of Slick 50 B.S.

I edited a personal attack from this post. Please avoid personal attacks and stick to the thread subject.

Lee Burough