Stock T-Type, just got back from the track

[neat]

I just got back from a trip to the local drag strip with the 87 Regal in my signature. The car is very nearly 100% stock. The only mods are a Walbro fuel pump and the catalytic converter has been replaced with a straight piece of pipe. All 4 tires are 215/65-15 BFG's on the stock wheels. Stock boost, stock chip, stock everything.

The car ran a best of 14.3 @ 93 MPH. I am amazed at a couple things:

First, the brakes ability to hold boost. By the end of the day I was power braking the car at 50-60% throttle at the line, the turbo was whistling, and there wasn't any sign that the car was about to over power the brakes.

The sixty foot times for a 215 tire are spectacular in my opinion, with two 2.10 runs being the best.

OK, now on to the things that don't amaze me:

The MPH is really low for a 14.3 ET, especially condsidering the sixty foot time isn't below 2.0 or anything. That leads me to believe that the car isn't pulling as hard in third gear as it should. What do you guys think? Do the Turbo Buick cars normally run out of steam like that at the big end of the track or should I be looking for a hgiher MPH?

During one pass, the car did not shift into third gear on it's own. I had to let off the gas and abort the run. The next pass the transmisison shifted properly. Any idea what could cause that?

The car has no tachometer and no boost gauge. I had no idea what kind of boost I was launching with, if any at all.

On the street, when power braking the car, it takes less than a second for the turbo to come on and over power the rear tires. At the track, it seemed to take much longer, 2-3 seconds sometimes. Any idea what could be causing that?

I am really impressed with the car. I can't wait to start tweaking on it and see what it'll do!

[Lee_Burough]

First thing is to get a scan tool, and boost guage, then, you will know some important data for the future.

Future Mods....Modern chip, adjustable wastegate and Alchy kit.

[ES1]

I guess without a boost gauge , you really don't know where you are at.
Does it have an adjustable wastegate?
Cars usually pickup 20MPH from the 1/8 to the end.
It could have been cavitation of the transmission.
That's why we overfill them by a quart.
Not sure what could be causing the slower spool up.
Heat soak?
Looks like you are off to a good start,
I would get a boost gauge and an audible knock detector.

[neat]

8th mile MPH was 75-76 for all the passes. I am getting about a 17 MPH gain, so that's pretty close to the 20 MPH you quoted.

I am working on making WinALDL work, but I haven't been successful so far.

No, there is no adjustable waste gate on the car.

Right now the game plan is to get WinALDL working so I can monitor knock and hopefully I find a way in WinALDL to see how much boost the engine is getting. Anyone with some WinALDL experience care to chime in on that one? Does the TR even have a MAP sensor?

Once that's done I think I am going to modify the waste gate actuator rod, mix some 93 Octane with some Xylene and start to turn up the boost.

I also might try burning a chip for it myself. I have all the equipment to do it for my 91 Corvette, and I have become pretty profcient with the software. I've never done a TR before, but I think I can figure it out. I wonder what Kind of boost I can see if I adjust the computer setting for the waste gate solenoid to bleed as much boost as possible before it gets to the diaphram? I might try that before I mess with making the rod adjustable.

I will add 1 QT to the transmission and see if that makes a difference. I didn't realize standard practice was to overfill them by 1 QT.

Thanks for the information, keep it coming!

[ES1]

Boost (Usually) cannot be detected with a scantool.
T-link has a boost sensing setup but it requires replacement of the 2 bar MAP with a 3 bar MAP and someother setup.
I want an audible knock detector because it reads knock before the computer not after so you get real time knock detection.
Assumming you are not overboosting because of bad hoses, then you had about 14lbs of boost.
Your MPH is a little low for the 1/4.
Zip tie all vaccum and boost hoses and I recommend some t-clamps.
If your running the stock chip, that has to much timing for current conditions.
Your car may of been knocking and timing was being pulled.

[QUIP'6']

get a chip from eric it will make a tremendous difference oon a stock setup that stock chip has to much timing and with the change in gas you are probably getting your timing pulled when mine was stock i got a 14.5 at 94 with a 2.3 60 foot and 77 in the 1/8 when i put in erics chip i got a 14.3 and 98 with a 2.5 foot 78 in the 1/8 this is on street tires so now i know i am making more power cause of more spin and more mph

[Paul Clark]

Does your car have a digital dash?
If it does, I don't think you have a MAP sensor.
I have a GN, but guessing maybe the T-Types are similar in this regard.??
Others will correct me if I'm wrong.

[BigTurbo6]

How many miles are on the car? Older cars tend to fall flat from worn valve springs and wiped cam lobes.

[Red Regal T]

Those numbers are typical for a bone stock T. You're right on the money.

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

The car seems fine, low 14s for a stocker isnt too bad, 17mph is slow but could be alot better.

Get a scantool that works, windowswhat doesnt seem to be working right now, get a reliable scantool and dont blow it up trying to figure it out.

Id also invest in one of erics chips, you will be able to adjust the timing tables +or- 9° and i think 20% fueling
80.00 for a chip set right is worth it to me not having to try and figure it out on my own.
Just trying to help
BW

[neat]

Yes, the car has a digital dash. No factory boost gauge, so no MAP sensor I am guessing.

The car has 120k on it, and has been sitting for the last 5 years. I think some new valve springs would be a great idea. How, exactly, does a roller lifter wipe a lobe? I didn't think that was really possible?

It was 88-90 degrees with 80% humidity on race day.

Looks like I need a scan tool, lol.

I live about an hour away from Alvin from www.pcmforless.com. If do decide that burning a chip for the car is beyond me, then I would probably go to him for a dyno tune. Some of the mail order tunes are great, but I just don't see how a generic tune can be better than a custom one developed over the course of a day on the dyno or on the track. I've never dealt with the TR before though, and the mail order tunes do seem to be really popular with this crowd.

Thanks for the advice/information, keep it coming!

[Ormand]

The factory MAP sensor was connected only to dash gauge, not to the ECM, so you couldn't get boost readings from aldl or from the ECM. Turbolink replaces the MAT sensor with a a MAP sensor, so you replace one reading with the other.
The engine doesn't have roller lifters- it has a flat tappet cam, and that's how they manage to wipe a lobe sometimes.
The "mail order tunes" you are dismissing are usually CUSTOM chips- the vendors base the chip formulation on the equipment installed on your specific Buick. There are some less expensive chips, like the Thrasher, that are basically upgrades of the stock chip, but are limited to stock or near-stock engine configuration.
You're right, many of the turbo Buick drivers/tuners are happy with chips from TurboTweak, or from Full Throttle, or other vendors. And, as you note, you have "never dealt with a TR before". Until you learn a lot, I suggest you not try to show off your expertise, since many of those on this board have spent year learning the tricks.

[madhat]

two things, I've never heard to overfill the trans! I just did because I would get too much in there
Don't use Poston unless you KNOW where the part is coming from and is a respected vendor! I learned the hard way that you can really waste money there

[UNGN]

Originally Posted by neat

Yes, the car has a digital dash. No factory boost gauge, so no MAP sensor I am guessing.

The car has 120k on it, and has been sitting for the last 5 years. I think some new valve springs would be a great idea. How, exactly, does a roller lifter wipe a lobe? I didn't think that was really possible?

Your stock motor should have regular lifters.

I'm no cam expert, but the failures I've seen of Roller lifters on budget roller cams seemed to wipe from the roller not rolling true on the cam, like a shopping cart wheel, and the surface fretted. I see fretting damage on turbine parts all the time (from vibration) and the metal transfer looks very similar to wiped roler cams.

93 mph is a little slow for your 1/8 mile mph.

A good scan tool that can tell you'll frame by frame what is happining will be very helpful.

First, be sure you are running in Drive and not OD (it sounds like you are OK)

Then make sure you are getting zero knock during the run.

Then you need to determine what RPM = 93 mph.

If 93 mph over 5000 RPM, you need to look at the transmission/TC for slipage.

If 93 mph is 4100-4600 RPM your trans is probably OK, but you need to look into valve spring, first.

If valve springs don't get you to 98 mph, you need to make sure your chip isn't cutting the timing back in 3rd.

let us know what you find out.

As a postscript, My car ran 11.53@118 with a 100% stock motor (new stock GM valve springs) with a $20 Thrasher 108 chip, Bluetops and a TA49 on Drag radials, so some of the available mail order tunes work pretty good.

[Sweet6]

Ditto on the chips. One of the best things we have going for out cars is the chip makers. They are cheap and plug and play. There are several chip guys out there to choose from. For $80 it is by far the best bang for the buck.

[neat]

Originally Posted by Ormand

The factory MAP sensor was connected only to dash gauge, not to the ECM, so you couldn't get boost readings from aldl or from the ECM.

Tha makes sense. How does the ECM know when to add fuel for boost if there is no MAP sensor? Is it all based on the MAF sensor? I can't believe a MAF from 97 would be that sophisticated? How does the ECM do it?

Turbolink replaces the MAT sensor with a a MAP sensor, so you replace one reading with the other.

So, to get a boost reading from turbo link, you remove the manifold temperature sensor and replace it with a pressure sensor?

The engine doesn't have roller lifters- it has a flat tappet cam, and that's how they manage to wipe a lobe sometimes.

Gotchya. That's what I get for ASSuming they were roller engines.

The "mail order tunes" you are dismissing are usually CUSTOM chips- the vendors base the chip formulation on the equipment installed on your specific Buick. There are some less expensive chips, like the Thrasher, that are basically upgrades of the stock chip, but are limited to stock or near-stock engine configuration.

I didn't intend to convey that I was dismissing mail order tunes, they seem to work very well for the TR crowd. It just seems that other cars vary so much, even cars with the same mods. I guess the TR's all seem to respond pretty much the same to the modifications though.

You're right, many of the turbo Buick drivers/tuners are happy with chips from TurboTweak, or from Full Throttle, or other vendors. And, as you note, you have "never dealt with a TR before". Until you learn a lot, I suggest you not try to show off your expertise, since many of those on this board have spent year learning the tricks.

I didn't mean to come accross like I was trying to 'show off my expertise.' Sorry if that's what anyone took away from my post(s). I don't have any expertise on anything (well, maybe vintage Superman comics) let alone a turbo buick.

First, be sure you are running in Drive and not OD (it sounds like you are OK)

I was in OD. I will run it in D from now on, but can you explain why there is a difference?

Don't use Poston unless you KNOW where the part is coming from and is a respected vendor! I learned the hard way that you can really waste money there

Can you clarify what you mean? Who/what is Poston, and why do I want to stay away from it/him/her?

A good scan tool that can tell you'll frame by frame what is happining will be very helpful.

I have heard that a scan tool will only take 3 or 4 samples in a 1/4 mile run because the sample rate of the TR sucks. Is that true?

Gotta run, but I'll come back in awhile!

[madhat]

There are only like 2 clutches in a stock trans for 4th. Unless you rebuild your trans for the track, your 4th will start slipping if you WOT in it alot.
Poston Enterprises is a suplier of Buick muscle parts. Everytime that I have delt with them, their parts have been poor fitting or just don't really have the quality you would expect. I love my T-top guage pod, but man, they really needed to clean up the rough edges(it looks like I made it late one night just to have a place for my guages)! And don't even get me started on weatherstripping that didn't come straight from GM...to put it shortly, they are just a middle man and you can get it cheaper if you go to the source.
Your scan tool's sample rate depends on the quality of scan tool(Scanmaster is every 1.25 seconds)

[UNGN]

If you run the car in OD, it will want to shift into OD at around 93 to 98 mph and that is when the accelleration will stop.

If you let it shift itself, 9 times out of 10 it will do it low enough to take you right out of the power band. Even with stock Valve springs, and a non locked converter, the car should pull to 110 mph in drive.

On cars than run over 115 mph, you can try shifting into OD (at the risk of your tranny), but at least OD will still be in the power band.

Turbolink updates fast enough to get 10 - 12 frames for a run. That's more than enough to check RPM/mph and all the parameters of a run. The boost sensing is great because I never look at my boost gage after I set my boost for launch.

Boost sensing plugs a new 3 bar map sensor into where your Inlet Air Temperature sensor used to plug in. The IAT sensor is pre turbo and useless for engine parameter calculations so its a good trade off.