Motor won't rev over 5200-5300rpm... WTF???

[yullose]

That's exactly what I intend to do Dusty...

I spoke to Mike at TA again today for about 25 minutes... had a great conversation with him about a bunch of different things.

Anyway... he said he's sending me another set of inner springs and some .060 shims that should put me at 170/370-ish with my installed heights.

When I pull a couple springs off, I will run them up the street to the local machine shop and have the pressures checked against my build sheets.


I know these Moroso testers aren't textbook accurate, but I was really surprised to see my springs wouldn't even hit 300lbs when I compressed them all the way down to the valve seals... It must have something to do with the rocker ratio and the cheap tester...(Only $70)

Anyways... the benchtop tester at the local machine shop will give me more reliable numbers. I can't wait to see what they look like.

[yullose]

Well... now I'm fvcking furious.

I don't know how goddamn many phonecalls it takes to get things right... but this is just ridiculous.

Look at the inner springs TA just sent me... and tell me whats wrong with this picture. (hint - look at the one all the way to the right)

I called and talked to Mike. I was furious and trying my best to be polite and tactfull. He just transferred me back to the guy that did (****ed up) my heads, who happens to be the guy that swears he checked all 12 springs before shipping them.

I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, nor was I born yesterday.

There is NO FVCKING WAY these springs were checked on a scale. Tell me how the fvck you get the same spring rate from a spring with two extra coils on it ? YOU DON'T.

I wonder if he even looked at them when they got shoved in the bag.

There is just NO excuse for this level of incompetence when dealing with a company of this caliber.
I thought when I ordered all this stuff, I was ordering the best there was to offer. I didn't flinch at the prices at all... and in the last 2 months have spent well over $4000 with them.

I don't expect ANYONE to kiss my a$$ for my money... but when I spend good money, I expect quality in return... nothing more.

I even PAID for these corrected springs, AND the shims AND the 3-day select shipping so I would have them by the weekend.

Now here I sit with a mismatched pile of springs I have ZERO confidence in.

I'm about to just order a set of beehives and associated hardware and throw these TA springs in the garbage.

I'm so fvcking mad right now I can't think straight.

All this... on top of a mis-threaded head stud and a mis-formed rocker adjuster... which they ALSO charged me for when they sent a replacement.

[TurboBuRick]

I thought I was the only one with that kind of luck.

[yullose]

And... if you guys think I'm crazy... here's the other crap I had to deal with right off the bat.

I never got a replacement stud... luckily I had a few oddball spares in my toolbox to substitute it. You don't need a pitch gauge to see it won't screw into the block. The other end is fine. Alongside it is another stud with the correct 7/16 thread.

Look closely at the rocker adjuster screw. The hex is too shallow to get a wrench in... TA sent me a replacement for it... but charged me $13.


No. I'm not crazy or over-demanding. I just have really crappy luck.

[ta88gta]

Ouch, now thats a pain in the azz. I been following this thread from the begining and if i were you i would do exactly what you just said. Take both sets of springs, retainers and keepers throw them in a box, ship them back to TA and get your money back. Save youself the hassel and piss around of setting up those coils up and order at set of beehives that you know will work on your setup.
Too bad this is turned in to such a run around but i think almost every member here has gone through something like this in one way or another. Sad, but its all apart of our hobby.

[DailyDrifter]

Thats phucked up. Call them up and ship them back, and dont do business with them anymore.

[DCVING 6]

Try calling DLS and see if he can set you up with something that works? I know Dan has had customers using TA heads with success.

[ttypewhite]

Its always best to buy these products off of a vendor of TA or Champion that builds these motors. Dan at DLS has these products in most cases on his shelf, and they are checked for pushrod fitment, head stud fitment, proper spring pressure etc on a mock up motor before they leave his shop. I have been down this road years ago when buying straight from the source only to find out they couldn't slide down my head studs. And when that was opened up and ready to go, the push rod holes also needed to be sleeved for proper clearance. Spent $250 more for something I should have had no problems with. The kicker is the price is virtually the same when I dealt with DLS and the end result was a happy camper. So to hear of your misfortune. I do feel your pain.

[yullose]

Well... in Mike's defense, he has been great to deal with and wants nothing more than to make things right. I would NEVER say "Don't do business with him". He's great to talk to and as a business owner, he is doing everything I could ask for and more. He has gone above and beyond the call of duty to keep in touch with me and has been very "hands-on" as a business owner.
I have no beef with him or his company and will ABSOLUTELY continue to do business with him. His customer service is outstanding.
Unfortunately as a business owner, when you trust your employees to do things a certain way, there is no way of confirming it without standing over their shoulder at all times. This was simply a goof-up and one oddball spring got mixed in with the batch. It wasn't intentional and Mike is very embarrassed about it. In my frustration and anger, I probably worded my post a little too harsh, and Mike didn't deserve the bad publicity. I have spoken to Mike several times today and directed him to this thread. Obviously he wasn't happy with my last post or the reason for it... but we both agreed, tempers tend to get the best of us as we get older. I should have probably stepped away from the computer for an hour, and addressed the issue after a cool-down period.

I went to the local machine shop and the two springs I took them checked out within a few lbs of the build sheet. They were a little light, but nothing serious...(5lbs) Obviously the Moroso tester is not close to accurate, and should be used as a consistency gauge instead of measuring spring rates.

The replacement inners all do exactly what they are supposed to do, with pressures at 160/370... except for the one oddball that found it's way into the bag. That one tested the same as the ones on the heads.
The only measurement I can't personally confirm is the installed heights... but given the detailed build sheets I've received from Mike, I can only assumed they are dead-on and accurate.

I can only assume at this point, my cam profile is sort of an oddball, with much more aggressive ramps than a normal off the shelf hyd roller. Any other roller, with less lift or more duration... and this thread probably wouldn't exist.
Unfortunately, the lobe profile I have requires an aggressive valvespring. There was no way for Mike or myself to know this when the heads were built... so in hindsight, no blame can be put on anyone for the original set of springs that were put on the heads. They were pretty much exactly what should have worked with an off the shelf cam.

To those that say "do business elsewhere"... I suggest just the opposite. In all the years of dealing with vendors and machine shops, I've never gotten better customer service or more concern from a business owner. Quite frankly I'm a bit humbled by it...

Mike is a stand up guy and deserves our continued support.

In follow-up... Mike is sending me another inner spring and crediting me for the defective adjuster.
When I get all back together, I will box up the un-needed parts and ship them to Mike for inspection.

[Mike Licht]

I only have to say Kudos to you for making that post. As a vendor who has been on both sides of those type of post good and bad I can honestly say that was the most refreshing thing I have seen in a very long time. If I can ever help you pick up the phone and remind me about this thread, you will be happy
Mike

[bison]

This kind of BS happens when you order aftermarket stuff and humans are packing the products. I received a set with a wrong spring back in the late 90's from a vendor already mentioned here. It was about 95psi at 1.70 inch. Unfortunately i didnt figure this out till the car had a couple of intake backfires. I even called and questioned the springs. But i was assured they werent the problem. Now i check everything on assembly. Even the best fvck up

[yullose]

Well... I've got 11 springs on the motor, just waiting for #12 to arrive...

I threw the Moroso tester on them just for schitzengiggles, and they are a huge improvement.

The other springs, I could literally push them open with the palm of my hand.

The current combination, not even possible by hand.

And... just something else I thought was worth a mention.

Mike at TA Performance PERSONALLY hand picked that replacement spring for me... and PERSONALLY delivered it to the Post Office.
He ALSO paid for overnight, Saturday delivery out of his own pocket.

What does that tell you about the man and his company ?

How many other Buick vendors/Mfg's would do such a thing ?

Something else that I hadn't considered in my previous rants...

The head studs came from ARP and were packaged at ARP. So the fvcked up head stud was no fault of TA.

The TA rocker shaft assy's are MFG'd at T&D Machine and are an exclusive design. There are no others like them. Given that they are made at T&D and packaged at T&D for Mike, the defective adjuster was also no fault of TA Performance. Ironically, I got a 2nd defective adjuster in the 2nd set of rockers I bought from Mike. He was just speechless... as he's never seen ONE bad adjuster, let alone TWO with the same customer. I couldn't wait to call him yesterday when I found it... because I was just as dumbfounded.

This is why it's important for me to ship these items back to Mike... so he can bring it to the attention of his suppliers. Given that both these suppliers also provide parts to top-level Nascar teams, it could be a huge wake-up call to them. Defects like these should have never been shipped to Mike in the first place.

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by yullose

Well... I've got 11 springs on the motor, just waiting for #12 to arrive...

I threw the Moroso tester on them just for schitzengiggles, and they are a huge improvement.

The other springs, I could literally push them open with the palm of my hand.

The current combination, not even possible by hand.

And... just something else I thought was worth a mention.

Mike at TA Performance PERSONALLY hand picked that replacement spring for me... and PERSONALLY delivered it to the Post Office.
He ALSO paid for overnight, Saturday delivery out of his own pocket.

What does that tell you about the man and his company ?

How many other Buick vendors/Mfg's would do such a thing ?

Something else that I hadn't considered in my previous rants...

The head studs came from ARP and were packaged at ARP. So the fvcked up head stud was no fault of TA.

The TA rocker shaft assy's are MFG'd at T&D Machine and are an exclusive design. There are no others like them. Given that they are made at T&D and packaged at T&D for Mike, the defective adjuster was also no fault of TA Performance. Ironically, I got a 2nd defective adjuster in the 2nd set of rockers I bought from Mike. He was just speechless... as he's never seen ONE bad adjuster, let alone TWO with the same customer. I couldn't wait to call him yesterday when I found it... because I was just as dumbfounded.

This is why it's important for me to ship these items back to Mike... so he can bring it to the attention of his suppliers. Given that both these suppliers also provide parts to top-level Nascar teams, it could be a huge wake-up call to them. Defects like these should have never been shipped to Mike in the first place.

i hope springs are my problem. mine has the same symptoms. sputtering and laying over at the top of each gear. i have to sometimes let off the gas pedal to get it to shift or it will sputter 4400 to 5000 back and forth

[yullose]

Originally Posted by QUIP'6'

i hope springs are my problem. mine has the same symptoms. sputtering and laying over at the top of each gear. i have to sometimes let off the gas pedal to get it to shift or it will sputter 4400 to 5000 back and forth

Yep... exact same symptoms I had... right at the top of each gear it would sputter and lay-over until the shift dropped the RPM's enough for the valves to close.

If I held it in gear, it just got worse.

I have high expectations with the new spring combo on my motor.

I also took the 1.65 rockers off and replaced them with 1.55's instead. I think with the cam profile I have, combined with a 1.65 rocker... I just had way too much valve speed and lost control of the valves. Once valve control is lost, all hell breaks loose.

The stiffer springs, combined with the slower rocker ratio... SHOULD have me spinning clean well over 6000 now.

The car shifts @ 52-5300 by itself, so the only place I need to worry about valve float again is the top-end charge at the finish line.

[Pronto]

Hopefully this will all work out for you! If it does, maybe you should put a post in the feedback section about how things went.

It seems like there has been a rash of questions and issues with springs lately.

[yullose]

All I can say is, Mike deserves a serious thumbs-up for all his efforts.

The lone inner spring showed up a little bit ago, along with a $13 credit for the defective rocker adjuster. The spring travelled across the country and was in my hands in less than 24hrs.

It's also my understanding... Mike pulled a guy off a project to specifically address my valvespring issue, and even had him mock-up another cylinder head to simulate and check things against my build sheet. This involved alot of time and effort... and to top it all off, he even sent me an updated build sheet with all the correct info. I know this HAD to be a huge effort on Mike's part... and quite honestly, I don't know how to thank him.

And on top of it all, he spent $21.20 out of his own pocket to ship me a $2 valve spring.


I just thought you guys should know who you are dealing with when you call TA Performance. I feel like I was treated as an individual and a friend, not just a customer. If I could take back the hasty, short-tempered comments in my previous posts, I would. Mike didn't deserve any of it.

Another thing I feel deserves a thumbs up... The build sheets.

In 25 years of building engines and dealing with machine shops... I have NEVER... I mean NEVER gotten a build sheet with a cylinder head... not even a piece of paper with detailed info like this. This alone, speaks volumes about the company.

[yullose]

Everything is back together and running.

I adjusted the 1.55 rockers to 1/2 turn of preload and it sounds great.

Just 'gotta wait for Mother Nature to stop dumping rain here so I can go for a ride.

[TurboBuRick]

Let's hope for the best. I have my fingers crossed.

[johnplogii]

Didn't you find that you were running comp 885 lifters? If so that will be way too much preload. With the 885's I have been running .001-.002 preload. My cam is advertised as .545 lift & I do run 1.65 rockers. My car shifts at 6500 & has seen higher. I run a comp dual spring installed by Dan at DLS.

If you're not running 885's please ignore this post.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by johnplogii

Didn't you find that you were running comp 885 lifters? If so that will be way too much preload. With the 885's I have been running .001-.002 preload. My cam is advertised as .545 lift & I do run 1.65 rockers. My car shifts at 6500 & has seen higher. I run a comp dual spring installed by Dan at DLS.

If you're not running 885's please ignore this post.

I don't think I have the 885's on my car... I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure they are 853's... I can always back them off if needed.

If anyone knows how to positively ID the 853's & 885's, please chime in here.

I'm also not sure when the 885's hit the market, but this shortblock was put together around '06 I believe.


Here's pics of the lifters in my motor:

[yullose]

Originally Posted by Pronto

It seems like there has been a rash of questions and issues with springs lately.

You know... I have a theory about this...

With all the good parts and technology hitting the streets these days... guys are pushing aftermarket parts to the extreme. Better turbos, alky systems, nitrous, etc... all mean more boost. Also, cam profiles are getting innovative and more agressive.

Something I often think about...
When running 30psi boost, this means there is 30psi of pressure PUSHING on the backside of the intake valve... trying to force it open, much like the air pressure you put in the cylinder to keep the valves closed during a spring change.
I think that 30psi of boost pressure, somewhat subtracts from the advertised/installed seat pressures we see on valvesprings.
This means... a spring with 160lbs on the seat... will have 160lbs of seat pressure at an idle or zero boost... but when we are on the throttle and have 30psi in the intake... you may only see 130lbs worth of pressure on the seat. This won't affect the open pressures, but it may cause the valves to bounce when they close.

I'd love to see some testing done with a pressurized intake port... just to see the effects on a springs actual seat pressure. With enough pressure, you can eventually overcome the spring entirely... and blow the valve right off the seat.

Just something to think about.

[Pronto]

That does sound feasable. Maybe someone with more experience with that high of boost levels and roller cams can comment on it.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by Pronto

That does sound feasable. Maybe someone with more experience with that high of boost levels and roller cams can comment on it.

It's probably applicable theory even in lower boost engines... if they only run a 100lb spring and 20psi boost...


I asked Mike at TA if he was hiring at all... as I'd love to get back into a race shop again and try some of my goofy ideas...
Working in the Nascar shop really spoiled me... and unemployment won't last forever... but unfortunately, convincing my wife to move to Scottsdale AZ probably won't happen.

I could see a guy like Mike at TA or Mike at FT doing some testing like this...

Maybe this thread will spark some new ideas and products.

[TurboBuRick]

I'm finising up my motor as we speak. It's going in the car tonight. It will be running tomorrow. I have the exact same set up minus the aluiminum heads. Everything has been switched over from my old motor. I will let you know how it runs real soon.

[WhiteTtype989]

Yea those lifters look exatcly the same as mine are they the 853 's ?? I think the 885's have a gold ring in the center hopefully someone can chime in if im wrong . I couldnt figure out what I had either

[bison]

Originally Posted by yullose

You know... I have a theory about this...

With all the good parts and technology hitting the streets these days... guys are pushing aftermarket parts to the extreme. Better turbos, alky systems, nitrous, etc... all mean more boost. Also, cam profiles are getting innovative and more agressive.

Something I often think about...
When running 30psi boost, this means there is 30psi of pressure PUSHING on the backside of the intake valve... trying to force it open, much like the air pressure you put in the cylinder to keep the valves closed during a spring change.
I think that 30psi of boost pressure, somewhat subtracts from the advertised/installed seat pressures we see on valvesprings.
This means... a spring with 160lbs on the seat... will have 160lbs of seat pressure at an idle or zero boost... but when we are on the throttle and have 30psi in the intake... you may only see 130lbs worth of pressure on the seat. This won't affect the open pressures, but it may cause the valves to bounce when they close.

I'd love to see some testing done with a pressurized intake port... just to see the effects on a springs actual seat pressure. With enough pressure, you can eventually overcome the spring entirely... and blow the valve right off the seat.

Just something to think about.

Look like 853 in the pic. Id be more concerned about the exhaust side with a small 3 bolt and high hp as far as springs go. The backpressure will hit 70+psi at 800+hp if running a GTQ/3 bolt. Then you really need some strong springs.

[wbrophy]

I have both lifters and they look like 853's. That is the type of snap ring that is used in my 853's.

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by yullose

You know... I have a theory about this...

With all the good parts and technology hitting the streets these days... guys are pushing aftermarket parts to the extreme. Better turbos, alky systems, nitrous, etc... all mean more boost. Also, cam profiles are getting innovative and more agressive.

Something I often think about...
When running 30psi boost, this means there is 30psi of pressure PUSHING on the backside of the intake valve... trying to force it open, much like the air pressure you put in the cylinder to keep the valves closed during a spring change.
I think that 30psi of boost pressure, somewhat subtracts from the advertised/installed seat pressures we see on valvesprings.
This means... a spring with 160lbs on the seat... will have 160lbs of seat pressure at an idle or zero boost... but when we are on the throttle and have 30psi in the intake... you may only see 130lbs worth of pressure on the seat. This won't affect the open pressures, but it may cause the valves to bounce when they close.

I'd love to see some testing done with a pressurized intake port... just to see the effects on a springs actual seat pressure. With enough pressure, you can eventually overcome the spring entirely... and blow the valve right off the seat.

Just something to think about.

thats funny you bring this up. i was just talking about that same thing this morning because yesterday i turned my boost to 15 and the timing to 20/18 and shut off alky and the car screams it does have a tiny bit of sputter at the top of each gear but can hardly tell. i put on regular tires and it blazes them at 60 mph. when i put the timing to 23/21 and the boost to 24 it sputters bad and lays over. the numbers get rich like 850 to 870 when it sputters. i guess it is fuel building up in the cylinders. so maybe the increase in boost and timing is lowering my already weak spring pressure forcing the valve open from the backside. i am down to this conclusion since i went over every possible scenario. i hope you got your issue fixed. i am going roller in the winter

[jasjamz]

Originally Posted by TurboBuRick

I'm finising up my motor as we speak. It's going in the car tonight. It will be running tomorrow. I have the exact same set up minus the aluiminum heads. Everything has been switched over from my old motor. I will let you know how it runs real soon.

Hope all goes well. Hey that turbo is worng for you application, pass it over to me so you can get a billet wheel to go with the rest of your "Bling"

As far as the 30psi of boost being pressure on the back of the valve...You bring up good question. I hope the weather gets better there so you can test your car out.

[quickt]

Maybe I missed it somewhere in the 7 pages. Did you try unplugging the knock sensor?

[yullose]

Originally Posted by quickt

Maybe I missed it somewhere in the 7 pages. Did you try unplugging the knock sensor?

Yep, several times and it made no difference.

I have the valvesprings all on now... so it's just a matter of taking it for a test drive...

I 'gotta run out and pick up a couple trannys I found cheap... (BOP TH400's $75 for both) so when I get back I'll take the GN for a ride and report back with results.

[mjdwyer23]

hitting the track on the way home?

[Jerryl]

Originally Posted by yullose

.......... Something I often think about...
When running 30psi boost, this means there is 30psi of pressure PUSHING on the backside of the intake valve... trying to force it open, much like the air pressure you put in the cylinder to keep the valves closed during a spring change.
I think that 30psi of boost pressure, somewhat subtracts from the advertised/installed seat pressures we see on valvesprings.
This means... a spring with 160lbs on the seat... will have 160lbs of seat pressure at an idle or zero boost... but when we are on the throttle and have 30psi in the intake... you may only see 130lbs worth of pressure on the seat. This won't affect the open pressures, but it may cause the valves to bounce when they close. ............

Your theory is correct.
A 1.77 valve has approximate area that boost pressure is pushing on of 2.1-2.2 SqIn. At 20psi boost, that is about 40 lbs force. (What's a few lbs between friends? )
On the exh side it is about 66 lbs. Ass-U-Ming 2:1 BP ratio.

[davinci50]

Must be running good, He's not back yet. let us know Art.

[yullose]

Sorry it took so long to update... I had to pick up a couple TH400's this afternoon, then got roped in to a plumbing project here at home.

I just got back from a nice long ride in the GN.

IT'S FIXED and it runs like a banshee...

I still have a little false KR that makes it chchch at the gear change, but it smooths out as the KR dissipates, allowing the timing to ramp back in and the RPM's go up.

I purposely held it in low gear on the first run and it spun clean as a whistle right to 6000.

I don't have the WB sensor hooked up yet... but that will be next. I'll grab a new one from Autozone tomorrow and get everything calibrated for another couple abusive runs tomorrow night.


I don't even bother trying to build boost to launch it... I have enough trouble with tirespin leaving from a dead idle now. It will walk out about 100ft and start hazing the tires.
The difference in power now is like night and day.

I think I will need to get one of these TH400's put together sooner, than later... I thought I felt my trans slipping at the gear change now...
I made a couple hard runs, but didn't get them all recorded. It's hard as hell to see the laptop on a dark country road with no domelight.

Here's the Powerlogger run I just made, holding it in 1st to 6000.