Looking for some fuel system ideas (aftermarket stuff)

[yullose]

I've got a fuel cell and A1000 pump on the way... and the Champion intake showed up today.

What I was "planning" to do is this...

Run one -08 line from the cell to the pump then one -08 from the pump to the pass side rail.

I'd like to use my old regulator I pulled off the stock rail setup. I threaded it to 1/4npt in/out, then installed -06 fittings in/out. I remote mounted it to the PS reservior bracket.

I was 'gonna adapt down from -08 to -06 at the driver side rail fitting and run a -06 line from the rail to the regulator, then -06 from the regulator to the cell.

I purposely didn't buy any fittings or braided line yet, just so I could see what fittings came in the Champion rails and what I had to work with.

My question is this...
Will a -08 pressure x -06 return system work OK with the small regulator that was made for the stock rail combined with the A1000 pump ? I was just concerned about the lack of return flow capability it has.

I also kicked around the idea of dual-feeding the rails, but really wasn't sure how to go about it while maintaining a clean engine compartment.

I also thought about doing it in -10 feed x -08 return, but the cell only jas a pair of -08 outlets... so I'd need to tee the two -08 outlets into a single -10 going to the pump. I'd also need to upgrade to a bigger regulator then too.

Any ideas ? suggestions ? pictures ???

[Chuck Leeper]

Just my $.02...
1. The pump needs protection w/ a 40-100 micron filter.
2. The injs need to see fuel that's been thru a 10 micron filter.
3. You can try the reg you have. A good test for capability is to see if you can turn the pressure down at least 5psi, from it's normal setting. If not, the reg is a flow restriction, and has to be upgraded.
4. As for line size: I used that combo, and found it worked fine.
I use these filters:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/filters.html
NICE peeps to deal with... AND, the price is right!

[yullose]

I appreciate the informative reply.

I wondered what would/wouldn't pass thru the injectors.

I have a 40 micron filter I *was* going to mount before the pump...

I guess the ideal situation would be a minimally restrictive 100 micron filter before the pump and a fuel injector friendly 10 micron filter after the pump.

[ttypewhite]

That would work fine. I run a #8 to the fuel rail and a #6 from the same style fuel reg with no issues, check my sig.

[yullose]

I just ordered some lines and fittings, along with a 2nd filter.

I'll mount the 40 micron filter between the fuel cell and pump... and the 10 micron filter I'll mount up in the engine compartment on the fenderwell.

I'm sticking with a -08 feed and -06 return system.

Thanks for the opinions fellas...

This should be a busy week for my GN.

The TA heads should be here in a day or three... and the entire fuel system should be here tomorrow or Thursday.

Hopefully I don't have any fitment problems with the new heads & intake.

[1of1547]

Mine is basically the same as you are building. -10 from the cell to the first filter with a 100 micron SS element. Then the A1000 with a 10 micron celluse filter into a -08 line. Still using the stock fuel rail and Accufab fuel pressure regulator with a -06 return line.

To run the -10 straight out of the fuel cell I bought a -10 bulkhead and replaced the original one. It just needed to be drilled bigger. If I remember right reused the original bulkhead for the return or vent on top.

[yullose]

I thought about bumping up to the -10 stuff... but I think the -08 outlet fittings are welded in the aluminum cell.

Of course it will get here tomorrow and prove me wrong.

Either way, it's good to know I'm not the only one running this combo and it's been proven to work.

[V8Assassin]

I had the 8 cut off the cell and replaced with a 12 that runs a short distance from the cell to the pump. Ran 10 up to the compartment and split to 8 to each rail, with a 6 return.

The 12 to 10 may be overkill, but I would def. cut the 8 off the cell and replace with at least a 10.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by V8Assassin

I had the 8 cut off the cell and replaced with a 12 that runs a short distance from the cell to the pump. Ran 10 up to the compartment and split to 8 to each rail, with a 6 return.

The 12 to 10 may be overkill, but I would def. cut the 8 off the cell and replace with at least a 10.

I thought about using a Y-block between the cell and the pump. Two -08 lines out of the cell into a Y-block with a -10 to feed the pump.

At the moment, I already have everything coming in -08... so that will get used until I need to step it up a notch.

Eventually I will work on a dual feed rail system... but for now, I just want to get the car back together and running again.

[yullose]

I know the stock lines have been into the 9's already... BUT just for the sake of comparison...

Here's a pic of -08 & -06 fittings alongside the factory fuel lines.

I sure will feel more comfortable with these over the factory stuff, that's for sure.

[bison]

Id feed with a -8 and split to both rails underhood with the -6. This is what is most often done and it works. If you havent opened up the return on the regulator it is doubtful it will be able to return enough to be able to regulate at reasonable pressures unless you are reducing the pump output.

[V8Assassin]

Originally Posted by yullose

I thought about using a Y-block between the cell and the pump. Two -08 lines out of the cell into a Y-block with a -10 to feed the pump.

At the moment, I already have everything coming in -08... so that will get used until I need to step it up a notch.

Eventually I will work on a dual feed rail system... but for now, I just want to get the car back together and running again.

I've got a 2015 weldon with a 12 in and 10 out. That's the only reason I went as big as I did. Here is a link that was recently out with a similiar setup using two eights and a y block off the cell. Never considered the idea myself, but makes sense.

pics-Trunk Mounted -Cell-Fuel pump

[norbs]

The intake will not fit without using thicker gaskets on the TA heads. I had to use a .120 thick gasket. The TA heads are a little bit taller, since they are so thick. Also don't use areoquip/russel rubber lines unless you want the garage to smell like gas. Only use teflon braided lines and fittings. Whatever pump/ lines you use make sure you flow them at 80 psi to check the fuel flow. A -8 an line will support easily 1000hp with maybe a few psi drop on the outlet. I would use a -10 on the inlet side of the pump. You need to flow min 1.5 gal/min @80 psi in real world testing to be safe. You need to use an intake space made by champion or the TB up pipe will be in the way of the turbo inlet if it is 4". I see your blocking your bypass hose, hopefully your using a thermostat and drilling some holes in it to make sure there is always some flow. Sorry for getting off topic, but just giving you some things to look out during your intake install.

[gnxtc2]

Originally Posted by V8Assassin

I had the 8 cut off the cell and replaced with a 12 that runs a short distance from the cell to the pump. Ran 10 up to the compartment and split to 8 to each rail, with a 6 return.

The 12 to 10 may be overkill, but I would def. cut the 8 off the cell and replace with at least a 10.

x2

Chop the fittings off the cell. The cells are made for carb set ups.

Also are you using the foam?

Here's mine.


Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

[yullose]

Originally Posted by norbs

I see your blocking your bypass hose, hopefully your using a thermostat and drilling some holes in it to make sure there is always some flow.

I use a stock T-stat with the guts cut out of it.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by norbs

The intake will not fit without using thicker gaskets on the TA heads. I had to use a .120 thick gasket. The TA heads are a little bit taller, since they are so thick.

I expected the intake/head combination might take oddball gaskets... I didn't order anything yet, just for that reason. I appreciate the heads-up. It's nice to hear from others who run the same combo so I know what to expect.
I understand the TA heads like a much longer pushrod too ? (8.900-ish?)
FWIW, I also have a set of .045 Cometics to use. Hopefully no issues with them.

Originally Posted by norbs

You need to use an intake spacer made by champion or the TB up pipe will be in the way of the turbo inlet if it is 4".

Are you saying the Champion setup locates the throttle body lower than the stock intake and 70mm TB/plenum ?
I had a stock intake with Precision 70mm plenum/Accufab 70mm TB and they fit perfectly with the 4"/3" 70GTQ and FMIC uppipe.
If I do indeed need this spacer, I'll order one. Who keeps them in stock ?

BTW. I called TA and they said the heads should be here Thursday.
The fuel system will be here tomorrow.

[norbs]

I wouldn;t say the intake is lower than a stock one, but the precision plenum moves the TB up a little bit higher maybe 3/8" inch thats why it fits a bit better. Tom sells the spacer its about .900 tall. The pushrods will also have to be a bit longer, you are correct. My cometic head gaskets are seeping oil between the head and the block. This is probably due to the wrong finish on the block or deck surface, something you should also look into before you have a leaking monster like i do.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by gnxtc2

x2
Also are you using the foam?

Yep, I ordered the 15gal alum cell with foam and 90ohm sender. Every cell I've ever used has had foam in it and I've never encountered any problems.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by norbs

I wouldn;t say the intake is lower than a stock one, but the precision plenum moves the TB up a little bit higher maybe 3/8" inch. Tom sells the spacer its about .900 tall.

10-4

I'll probably wait 'till I get the motor between the fenders and see if I have any clearence issues.

[norbs]

Here's a pic in this thread of the champion spacer. Only drawback when you put the spacer on the Vac block on the TB will chew up the hood insulation in time.

champion fuel rail to use with external regualtor

[gnxtc2]

Originally Posted by norbs

Here's a pic in this thread of the champion spacer. Only drawback when you put the spacer on the Vac block on the TB will chew up the hood insulation in time.

champion fuel rail to use with external regualtor

I would run all the vacuum and MAP sensors off the back of the plenum spacer. I then make a 1/4" blank plate for the top of the TB to block the ports.

There is a pic in the above link with spacer tapped for the vacuum stuff.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

[ttypewhite]

Originally Posted by gnxtc2

I would run all the vacuum and MAP sensors off the back of the plenum spacer. I then make a 1/4" blank plate for the top of the TB to block the ports.

There is a pic in the above link with spacer tapped for the vacuum stuff.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

I ran a couple vaccum lines off of the back of my intake into a vaccum block that I use for all of my vaccum lines. Got it at Princess Auto for $8. Its less then 5" long.

[yullose]

Originally Posted by norbs

My cometic head gaskets are seeping oil between the head and the block. This is probably due to the wrong finish on the block or deck surface, something you should also look into before you have a leaking monster like i do.

Yeah, I will pay special attention to sealing up the cometics. I've read SO many complaints about them, I really wish there were something better.

I've managed to seal up coppers and cometics on BBC's, so hopefully I have the same luck with the Buick.

[bison]

Originally Posted by yullose

Yeah, I will pay special attention to sealing up the cometics. I've read SO many complaints about them, I really wish there were something better.

I've managed to seal up coppers and cometics on BBC's, so hopefully I have the same luck with the Buick.

RJC stainless if your using a stock block. They dont leak or blow. 33psi for about 3 mos and no problems

[yullose]

Originally Posted by bison

RJC stainless if your using a stock block. They dont leak or blow. 33psi for about 3 mos and no problems

Well... I pulled a pair of the RJC's off the car after they were pushing pressure into the overflow.

Did I read somewhere that RJC discontinued one of the designs due to problems ? The thicker gaskets maybe ?

I think the ones I pulled off were .060's and a fairly old/original design. I think the motor was put together around the end of '06 ???

Did RJC upgrade/improve the gaskets since then ? Maybe a thinner, more compressable design ?

I don't remember where I read the info, but I'm fairly sure of it.

If the RJC's are the new "better mousetrap", I'll get a pair of 'em ordered tomorrow.




TA aluminum heads
_________________ <<<< what should I put between them ?
ARP head studs
Stock 8-bolt 109 block


To be honest, I'm really not too afraid or worried about the cometics leaking. I've sealed-up a few motors with copper gaskets, and the biggest thing is, surface prep and attention to detail. I always put a film of RTV around all the coolant passages on both the block and heads.
I was gonna pull the rivets from the cometics and install them one layer at a time, using RTV silicone at all the coolant areas.
I will also use a low pressure radiator cap so it doesn't push the water past the gaskets. I'd rather it went into the overflow bottle.

[yullose]

The fuel system is in. I will need to cut/fit the rail feed/return hoses once the motor is back in the car.

I will eventually dual-feed the pump and get a higher capacity filter behind it, but for now, this will do... since I already had it ordered.

The gas gage works too.

Here's a couple pics:










I also got the -06 fitting for the fuel rail and a pressure port fitting for my FP transducer.

[norbs]

Those don't look like teflon braided lines to me? You will find out if it smells like gas as soon as you prime the system, but if it doesn;t bother you, then its no issue. Looks good though.

[yullose]

I'm not really sure what you mean by "smelling gas"... Leaks ???

I've been using steel braided rubber line for 25+ years and on countless applications... with never a problem.

Now, if I were running alcohol through the system, I would certainly step up to the high-dollar teflon hoses.

I flushed the system yesterday... today I will make a fitting to loop it through the return side and flush that half of the system. I will also bring it up to pressure and test the regulator. I don't anticipate any problems.

The only place I expect to smell gas is at the vent on the fuel cell.

[jasjamz]

Nice, When's the motor going in?

[yullose]

ASAP.

I'm bolting the heads on right now...

I 'gotta measure for pushrods and get them ordered later today.

I'd say sometime next week it should be back in the car.


BTW... I pressure tested the whole fuel system and it works like a champ.

With the regulator all the way out it won't make more than 2-3psi. The regulator is more than adequate with this pump/line combo.

[yullose]

Well... The motor is back in the car... and I 'gotta say I'm one of the luckiest guys alive.

Just so happens that the pushrods that were in my motor before, are perfect for this combination. They measured up just fine... 8.500 is dead on the money.

The intake valley pan gasket from Fel-Pro also fits perfect. The gasket thickness is fine and the bolt holes line up great.

The heads & intake need port-matching, but nothing I can't live with for the remainder of the Summer.

Two issues I ran in to regarding quality control.

1) 15 of the 16 new ARP head studs were fine. ONE of them had metric threads on the block side of the stud. Luckily, I had a box of spares in the garage and was able to find one that would work.

2) One of the T&D rocker hex adjuster screws wasn't completely broached for an allen wrench. There was just barely enough for my allen wrench to bite and adjust the valve. TA Performance is sending me a new one.

Monday I will ship them the Fvcked up ARP head stud and T&D rocker adjuster so they can see I'm not crazy.

[GNBRETT]

Looks great.

[yullose]

It's been a busy day.

[norbs]

I found some interesting reading on YB forums about why braided line has issues. Read below. I had to get rid of all my braided lines, I could not go in the garage even without getting a headache.

Re: steel braided fuel line that stinks ....on the outside?
It's called fuel permeation.

Do a search and you will find lots of info. Most people have had issues with leaking stainless braided line because the fuel rots the line when sitting. Espically pump gas. It will sometimes smell with new line too, keep that in mind. Stainless braided line is only good for around 4 to 5 years then you will have this issue. We have found this with new fresh lines too.

We have that same problem on a Grand National now with new line. We tried it with Earl's Prolite 350 and Aeroquip stainless braided line. Is the car in question running pump gas? Most problems are with pump gas. Mainly because of the ethanol and other ingredients of pump gas today. Grab the fuel line with your hand and hold it for 5 sec, then smell your hand!

Earl's recommends using teflon line just because of this. Posted right on their website. We never had this problem with our cars that run VP fuels. Even then you have to replace it ever 4-5 years or so. Mainly just the ones that run pump gas, and not all are affected. Best way to get rid of this issue is to go with teflon or Kevlar line.


Your fuel pump flows 650lb/hr@75 psi according to the chart at 13.5 volts




one gallon of fuel weighs 6.15lbs@70F
650lbs/hr / 6.15lbs=105.7 gal/hr
105.7 gal/hr / 60 min= 1.76 gal/min

Seems like a stout pump should support safely 650lbs/hr / .6BSFC = 1083 bhp OR 850 RWHP, without any loss from the lines.

[yullose]

Thanks for the info Norbs... Good to know I won't be running out of fuel pump any time soon.


I finally got everything hooked up and running today... She purrs like a kitten.

End of day pics: