Go Back   TurboBuick.Com > Tech Arena > Engine Tech

Engine Tech Buick V6 Engine Tech forum. 109's, SG Blocks, Stage I, Stage II, etc...



Welcome to the TurboBuick.Com forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:02 PM
scot w.'s Avatar
GNS Performance
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sevierville, TN
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 5,229
Images: 17
Lightbulb Flat tappet cam solution

This info right from Comp Cams...... as of 11/20/08

PRO PLASMA - The cure for flat tappet camshift worries!

Comp cams has once again proven their leadership by pioneering the use of Pulsed Plasma Nitriding to solve today's flat tappet camshaft durability concerns - A process we've named "Pro Plasma" Nitriding. This proprietary process is performed completly in-house with the most advanced equipment available & extensive testing has Confirmed a 100% increase in surface hardness and lubricity for improved durability.


What is Pro Plasma Nitriding?

Pro Plasma is a patended, 36 hour Nitriding process that uses pulsed nitrogen plasma, in a vacuum controlled inviroment, to embed chains of nitrogen ions into the camshaft surface approximately .008"-.010" deep. This newly fortified outer layer (Not a coating or polish) strengthens the cam shafts lobe surface 100%, reducing the chance of premature lobe wear during the critical initial break-in procedure and well beyond! No shine, Just a proven solution!


Why should you add this process to your next flat tappet camshaft?

Simply put - Peace of mind! The always tightening EPA restrictions on modern motor oils have led to a drastic decrease of key oil additives, which are essential for propper lifter rotation in flat tappet valve trains. Without them, the probability of premature lobe wear, lifter seizure or even complete failure greatly increases. Comp cams Pro Plasma Nitriding is a permanent solution for flat tappet issues! It not only strengthens the contact area between the camshaft lobe and lifter but also increases the surface lubricity through reduced friction.

See a Tech bulletin on Pro Plasma Nitriding-

http://www.compcams.com/information/.../Files/255.pdf

Watch a Video of the process.- Power Performance TV : COMP Cams Pro Plasma Nitriding Service


Scot W.
__________________
......CLICK HERE TO VIST OUR SITE..

PRO-TOURING= Look like Muscle cars, Accelerate like drag cars,
Corner like new corvette's and brake like you threw out an anchor!


Looking for better handling?
We now carry a Complete "Bolt-In, Pro-Touring" suspension for your G-Body!


ALL our products are made in the USA"

Last edited by scot w.; November 30th, 2008 at 08:40 PM.
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Quick6'n'-K.C.'s Avatar
wana steal it? meet mr9mm
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: under the hood of many turbo buicks.
Trader Rating: (14)
Posts: 9,863
Images: 18
Chris at comp cams want to send me a cam to test for them?

So is there a warranty or guarantee that the lobes wont go flat?

BW
  #3 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:14 PM
scot w.'s Avatar
GNS Performance
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sevierville, TN
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 5,229
Images: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick6'n'-K.C. View Post

So is there a warranty or guarantee that the lobes wont go flat?

BW
I guess that would be a question for your buddy wanting you to test the cam out!!

Scot W.
__________________
......CLICK HERE TO VIST OUR SITE..

PRO-TOURING= Look like Muscle cars, Accelerate like drag cars,
Corner like new corvette's and brake like you threw out an anchor!


Looking for better handling?
We now carry a Complete "Bolt-In, Pro-Touring" suspension for your G-Body!


ALL our products are made in the USA"
  #4 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Quick6'n'-K.C.'s Avatar
wana steal it? meet mr9mm
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: under the hood of many turbo buicks.
Trader Rating: (14)
Posts: 9,863
Images: 18
Oh wait, no warranty on race car products...

At least this is a step forward to address a issue at hand, i think running diesel engine oil pretty much has resolved my issues.

Thanks for the link,.... time will tell if it works or not..

BW
  #5 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:36 PM
scot w.'s Avatar
GNS Performance
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sevierville, TN
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 5,229
Images: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick6'n'-K.C. View Post
Oh wait, no warranty on race car products...

At least this is a step forward to address a issue at hand, i think running diesel engine oil pretty much has resolved my issues.

Thanks for the link,.... time will tell if it works or not..

BW
There is one thing for sure and two things for certian, This process definetly adds to the durability & longevity of the flat tappet camshafts! The combination of running diesel oil and this process will add to more life out of the flat tappet camshafts...

Can't hurt!

I will be buying a 208/208 Pro Plasma Nitrided flat tappet camshaft for my next build sitting in my garage..

Scot W.
__________________
......CLICK HERE TO VIST OUR SITE..

PRO-TOURING= Look like Muscle cars, Accelerate like drag cars,
Corner like new corvette's and brake like you threw out an anchor!


Looking for better handling?
We now carry a Complete "Bolt-In, Pro-Touring" suspension for your G-Body!


ALL our products are made in the USA"

Last edited by scot w.; November 30th, 2008 at 08:38 PM.
  #6 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 08:43 PM
RETIRED
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Trader Rating: (28)
Posts: 8,709
Like they re-invented the wheel . They cant even get a simple mechanical part like a hydraulic roller lifter to be consistent in QC. Then when you call them they act as if they never heard about the problem. The Comp cam you see in my sig is the last one you will ever see me use from them. This doesnt correct the engineering flaw the Buick engineers made when they mis-located the #3 exhaust either.
__________________
NO MORE TECH ADVISE. Please do not contact me unless you have a response to parts for sale.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old November 30th, 2008, 09:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Amherst,NY
Trader Rating: (1)
Posts: 469
Wasnt crane cams already offering this?
__________________
86 t type,6157 turbo,msd 50s,tt 5.6 chip,hotwired tt supra pump,3" dp ported elbow,comp 260 cam,forge manual boost controller,rjc power plate,smc alky,speed pro forged pistons .30 over,mild homeported heads,pypes exhaust with testpipe,f body rad with ramchargers fan,3200 10" stall.Best run,7.39@91mph 1/8 mile 11.72 1/4 mile at 112 with a 1.57 60 foot on bfg drag radials.
  #8 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,967
You would think that a "press release" from a major company would have at least gone through a spell check.

They should be embarrassed putting that out there.
__________________
86 T-Type.
Old time on stock long block: 7.2@96.5 1.7 60'
New Combo e.t.: TBD
  #9 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:28 AM
Boost231's Avatar
What's An Intercooler
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: SoCal
Trader Rating: (19)
Posts: 10,248
great post thanks for sharing that.
__________________
Just Another Slow HotAir

  #10 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:32 AM
scot w.'s Avatar
GNS Performance
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sevierville, TN
Trader Rating: (13)
Posts: 5,229
Images: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
You would think that a "press release" from a major company would have at least gone through a spell check.

They should be embarrassed putting that out there.
Did you get the basics of it because everyone else did..

I typed that up last night right out of the magazine so I might have missed a key or two and MY spellcheck don't work, never has!


Anyway, It's not all hacked up, it still can be read and understood, If you can't for some reason read it then click the video link below and you can listen to the "Press Release"...
__________________
......CLICK HERE TO VIST OUR SITE..

PRO-TOURING= Look like Muscle cars, Accelerate like drag cars,
Corner like new corvette's and brake like you threw out an anchor!


Looking for better handling?
We now carry a Complete "Bolt-In, Pro-Touring" suspension for your G-Body!


ALL our products are made in the USA"

Last edited by scot w.; December 1st, 2008 at 09:47 AM.
  #11 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2008, 11:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Toronto
Trader Rating: (4)
Posts: 2,920
Wonder if that & then a Cryo Treatment would work well together?
__________________
87 LTD owned since May 88 No hood ornament from the factory!
Old combo went 11.80 with 1.75 60 ft & broken crank gear teeth with 95* weather on a TA-49!
New combo is roller & 6776 Turbo. Track times coming!
Got in 1 pass at 11.30 & then blew up the tranny.
2010 here I come!
  #12 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ohio
Trader Rating: (8)
Posts: 2,101
Thumbs up

It sounds like CompCams is really putting an effort into resolving the wiped lobes problem so many of us have had with the flat tappet cams.

I for one give them credit for that at least.

Maybe they will try and resolve the roller lifter problem as well.
__________________
86 T-Type, new engine/combo with 917 miles,tuning inprogress on 93 octane,dual nozzle alkycontrol not turned on,yet. An occasional driver GN1's,T&D 1.65 rockers,CompCams Roller,70mmtb/plenum,Little KB fmic,60lb.inj,NGK plugs,RJC power plate,MaftPro,Accel super coil,ATR sway bar,TH-400

''Finally I won't be the worst president in history'' - Jimmy Carter

"The economy is on life support," says Scott Bradley, 38, general manager of a carpet store in Columbia, Mo. Bradley says he voted for Obama in 2008 but he wouldn't again."Obama's policies are making the economy worse."

Date
Presidential Approval Index
Strongly Approve
Strongly Disapprove
Total Approve
Total Disapprove

9/02/2010
-13
29%
42%
47%
52%
  #13 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 02:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: T-Dot
Trader Rating: (16)
Posts: 2,427
spend the extra coin and go hyd roller. Way more reliable, very quiet, very streetable and better overall performance. Sounds like a win win to me. I have never had a issue with a flat tappet cam, but since the conversion, I will never go back.
__________________
Mike Ricketts


DLS built 4.1 StageII/ 76turbo/ 44mm Tial/ BG ported intake/ 1.75 T&D jessel style rockers/ FAST system/ TH400/ PTC converter (Thanks Dusty)/ TA heads/ 5" DP/ TA SS 4 bolt Headers/ Champion Racing/ RJC front mount/ 95lb/ Racetronix harnesses throughout the car etc...
Cal Hartline tuned........

DLS ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
886 E 900N, Wheatfeild, IN, 46392
219-956-3653

HARTLINE PERFORMANCE
321-722-1563

My Track passes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKEIyppgOr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SqbYtfQn8c
  #14 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 02:47 PM
RETIRED
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Trader Rating: (28)
Posts: 8,709
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehot1 View Post
Maybe they will try and resolve the roller lifter problem as well.
They arent aware there is a problem
__________________
NO MORE TECH ADVISE. Please do not contact me unless you have a response to parts for sale.
  #15 (permalink)  
Old December 5th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: burlington NC
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 756
Nitriding... What is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehot1 View Post
It sounds like Comp Cams is really putting an effort into resolving the wiped lobes problem so many of us have had with the flat tappet cams.

I for one give them credit for that at least.

Maybe they will try and resolve the roller lifter problem as well.
Comp Cams Nitriding is merely the latest, highest tech version of a very old technology, and it does NOT address the flat tappet wear issue at its core.

Nitriding has been done to automotive parts for over 60 years using various methods; Plasma Nitriding does not result in a different type of Nitride even though the process is much more controllable than older, cruder methods.

GM certainly has employed different forms of case hardening, including both Nitriding and CarboNitriding (the type GM used was called Tufftriding) when it deems the process applicable. Neither is magic, they are well established metallurgical techniques with pros and cons.

Both processes create a harder surface by creating a thin hardened "case" around the part. This hardened surface is also more brittle, and the core of the part is left in a more ductile state to provide toughness.

Crankshaft journals, many of which are case hardened, operate in a hydrodynamic lubrication mode, where there is ZERO design contact between the journal and bearing insert, so the case hardening sees little wear.

Flat Tappet camshaft lobes only operate in hydrodynamic lubrication mode on the base circle. Once the lifter foot begins to climb the leading ramp, the film rapidly displaces and the lubrication moves into an ElastoHydrodynamic mode, and then in high-performance engines, into a Full Boundary lubrication mode. In this mode the oil film is thinner than the surface roughness and contact WILL occur. This is the lubrication mode which calls for ZDDP.

Camshafts have been case hardened using various methods for a very long time. There is an optimum hardness which does not make the surface too brittle, so harder is definitely not better.

The cam lobe is a flat surfaced, tapered arch, and the lifter foot is spherical, so they touch at a very small point. Under load the metal deforms to spread the contact to a level below the rupture pressure of the metal. If the lifter and cam are both excessively hardened, the resulting surfaces will not easily deform to spread the contact pressure, which is REQUIRED in an ElastoHydrodynamic lubrication mode. This is what the "Elasto" in the name means. If all of the pressure is concentrated on a single point the hardened, brittle metal will fracture in a failure mode called "spalling". Once this happens the surface will self-destruct.

Virtually all camshafts over the years, despite having case hardening have needed ZDDP as an antiwear agent, why? This is because it does not matter how the surfaces are hardened, without a sacrificial antiwear film to take the sliding wear; the surfaces themselves will take the wear. This means that ANY case hardening will not last long without a sacrificial antiwear film. The Comp Cams treatment, while high-tech, and arguably better quality, does not address or solve the problem that ZDDP has solved for years.
__________________
Richard Clark at AMI
  #16 (permalink)  
Old December 5th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: burlington NC
Trader Rating: (0)
Posts: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick6'n'-K.C. View Post
Oh wait, no warranty on race car products...

At least this is a step forward to address a issue at hand, i think running diesel engine oil pretty much has resolved my issues.

Thanks for the link,.... time will tell if it works or not..

BW

See my other post about the Comp Cams coating, but I don't think the diesel oil has solved your issues; it has merely helped address one aspect in a non-optimum way.

The detergent content in diesel oil is necessary to control the high combustion byproduct level found in diesel engines. Unfortunately it has a bad side-effect: the detergent competes with the ZDDP for adhesion on your cam lobes. It is why higher priced racing oils, which could be formulated a hundred different ways for the cost, severely limit the detergent content. It lowers the effectiveness of the ZDDP, and in a race engine, the detergent is not needed since the oil only sees a few hours of use before being dumped.

The two extremes of detergent use are, indeed, diesel oil and racing oil. Without detergent, oil will not control contamination, and with too much the ZDDP action is reduced. The best street oils pre-SL had the correct balance for flat-tappets, with 1400ppm of Phosphorus and a median level of detergents. You can recreate this by using a SM oil and adding ZDDP to get an adequate level.

Another aspect of the diesel oil is the lack of adequate choice of viscosity. For many high-revving engines, most diesel oils are just too viscous, and will suffer shear-induced degradation of the VI (viscosity improver) package under high load and rpms. Of course, you could just change the oil at shorter intervals, like racers who use high-viscosity oils, but that is false economy compared to using an SM oil with a ZDDP additive that gives you exactly what your engine was designed for.

Keep using diesel oil for a "TIME" and in time you will probably learn what has been discovered in millions of engines by thousands of engineers over the last several decades-------high performance gasoline engines need the right viscosity oil formulated for gasoline engines with approprate levels of detergents and ZDDP----------they differentiate gasoline and diesel oil for a reason!!!!!........................RC
__________________
Richard Clark at AMI
  #17 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2009, 08:35 PM
turbobob924's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NW Chicago
Trader Rating: (1)
Posts: 710
new life to this post due to recent wipped cam discussion!

Hey beatav8, your thoughts?
__________________
Bob Ward
Crystal Lake, Il
www.turbo924.com

87 GN, 61K miles- 4.1 built by me- bored 40 over, hyper pistons, pocket ported heads, 212 cam, TE63E, stretched Stock IC, denso pump w racetronix hot wire kit, RJS powerplate, Powerlogger, double core stock rad with dual fans, TT 5.6 chip for 80's and E85, 3" LT! MAF, Translator plus, LC1 WB, Jimmys trans, vigilante 3200 Converter, TA 3" SS DP,GNX gauge kit

80 Porsche 924 turbo hybrid powered by 87 GN-stock 3.8 bottom end, ported heads w 1.77 intake valves, RJS powerplate,KB 208 cam, PTE remote oil filter, TE44, 60lb injectors, caspers wire harness, Bosch HV pump, custom FMIC, TH elbow and custom DP, TT SD chip, LC1 WB, Porsche 5-speed trans, motor being rebuilt by me.

09 Hyundai Santa Fe- wifes car
00 Olds Bavada- daily driver
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
One of the largest message boards on the web !