ZDDP question

[Brian Mc]

I've been out of the loop for a while and have not heard until recently of the lack of cam protection the newer oils provide for a flat lifter engine. My TR has 120K on the stock cam, and all is quiet with no issues to report. I had taken the engine apart recently for a reseal/inspect and cam looked good, so it went back in.

Does it need this supplement? I don't really drive it much anymore, and I just changed the oil with NAPA 10w30 standard oil.

[A2000RICH]

If it was my car and the engine was near stock, ie flat tappet cam/lifters i would absolutely use it unless i was using one of the "exotic oils" that is guaranteed to have adequate levels of ZDDP. Unfortunately most of these manufacturers of what i call "exotic" oils are somewhat lacking on hard data and generous on "promises" and rely on baseless testimonials. Last week i had Mobil one SM 10-30 and Valvoline "dino" SM 10-30 checked and each one has ZERO phosphorus!--------both of these oils have shown a drastic reduction since only three months ago-------each of them did have .07% Zinc but that does little good for wear protection------pure Zinc only serves as an anti corrosion inhibitor--------remember the ZDDP molecule is defined by a composition of Zinc, Sulfur, and Phosphorus that is combined in a special process---------- you cannot have ZDDP without al three---------it is really an interesting situation and it is clear that the industry in general doesn't give a hoot about older cars---------the much touted Rotella 15-40 CJ-4 is also way down on ZDDP contrary to what everyone seems to think--------the highest i have been able to find in the last 60 days is Castrol "Tection" at .05%---------i would never trust an oil with .05% to protect any of my valuable TR's

[BlackMetal]

It's good that everything appeared in great shape when you had the engine apart but I still don't think it would hurt to run the additive. There seems to be plenty of evidence that modern oils really aren't ideal for older engines. Over the years many additives and other "magic bottles" just seem like hype but this seems to be the real deal. Or maybe I fell for the hype.

Either way a 6-pack of bottles is $50-60 and I don't mind spending that if it means my engine might be safer.

[Chuck Leeper]

Maybe use the STP additive? About $3.00 a bottle.
Or EOS, if you can find it for about $7.00.

[sailbrd]

This is the tread I did on a response from Amsoil.
Amsoil has ZDDP

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by Chuck Leeper

Maybe use the STP additive? About $3.00 a bottle.
Or EOS, if you can find it for about $7.00.

here's the problem with your solutions----STP? this product has just enough "zddp" to list it as an ingredient for marketing appeal but not enough to do your older car any good at all-----heres the math-----STP comes in a 15 oz bottle that contains .65% zinc and .10% phosp by weight-----when you add this to a 5 qt oil change (160 oz.) the percentages are diluted by about ten times-----this results in the addition of .065% zinc to your oil and .01% phosp-------now consider that you add this to one of the quality 10w-30 oils i just mentioned in the last post-------Mobil one has .07% zinc which would equal .14% zinc total-----this is certainly arguably adequate by any standards but there is a problem------the phosp total would only still be .01% which is a real problem-------the fact that there is zinc does not mean there is ZDDP because the zddp molecule is a combination of zinc and phosp in a particular chemical compound and if the ratio is not close to .8:1 it is not ZDDP------Zinc and phosp by themselves or even mixed seperately do not offer the same protection as the actual synthesized molecule-------As for EOS at least it has real ZDDP in it-------there are only two little problems with EOS------first is that EOS was formulated years ago when it was intended to boost the amount of ZDDP that was already in the existing oil-------this results in a rather minimal protection-------lets do the math again-----EOS comes in a 16 oz bottle------it has .71% zinc and .53% phosp by weight------add to 5 qts oil and this is diluted by ten times resulting in .07% zinc and .05% phosp----if the fill were SM mobil one 10-30 or valvoline 10-30 the numbers would fall about 50% short of the reccomended values for API SF oil our cars were designed around-------bottom line is that to get an adequate amount of protection from EOS for modern SM oils requires TWO bottles of of a product that is now DISCONTINUED, thats the second problem with EOS--------while we are doing the math consider ZddPlus in a 4 oz bottle--------it contains about 6.5% zinc and 5.3% phosp (8 times the concetration of EOS)--------add it to 5 qts of oil and it is diluted 40 times resulting in 0.16% zinc and 0.13% phosp which is close to where you need to be for SF spec oil and it is not just zinc and phosp but REAL ZDDP--------considering that is is equal to two bottles of EOS for 10 bucks and you can add it to any off the shelf SM oil and have real protection it would seem a relative bargain-------except for the "exotic" specialty oils there is really no other good choice for our cars-----i have not found a single credible additive that restores the ZDDP levels required by our cars and i honestly believe i have totally searched the market--------this is why i did this in the first place since i have several dozen GN's and felt i had no reasonable option..............RC

[Chuck Leeper]

So, the ? then is posed:
Where do we buy this ZDDPlus stuff?
Thank god, I don't have "several dozen" GN's!! 1 was too much for me.

[BlackMetal]

ZddPlus - Purchase - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipement

I bought the 6 pack. Enough for a year at least.

[Tom Walker]

who carries the AMO and ARO oils? I know my fellow Indiana turbo buds would appreciate this info...Thanks.

[2QUIK6]

I've just started sending samples of my oil off to Blackstone Laboratories for analysis and for my daily drivers I use just Castrol Sytec Bland 20w/50 and they came back with 815 phosphorus parts per million and 1023 zinc parts per million which is a little above average which is 704 and 839 for specific motor I used it in....but what I'm getting at is I'll try this zddp additive and send the oil off and see if those parts increase significantly....but it would be a while..I'll add it after the next oil change, then it would be another 3k miles before I sent it off.

[GNX243]

I use Red Line 10w30 oil so I wrote to them last month and they replied:
"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, our motor oils contain 1230 ppm zinc and more importantly 1100 ppm phosphorus, this is sufficient for good flat tappet cam protection additional shouldn't be required." I am also still using the stock 80# valve springs.
However, you are looking at $8-$9/qt + shipping. Since I drive about 300 miles/year, it is of no significance but if this was an everyday driver, it would be cost effective to use a less exotic oil & ZDDPlus.

[A2000RICH]

guys-----i hate to bring bad news to what seems to be a simple subject BUT there is a serious misunderstanding displayed in this thread------i do not have time to go into detail tonight but i want to briefly touch on clarifying the error-----If for a moment we can agree that the long proven additive ZDDP is good for our cars it will let me get to the real subject-------ZDDP is a combination of zinc, sulfur, and phosphorous--------this recipe of ingredients are combined and "cooked" in a chemical process that results in ZDDP------the process is so nasty and dangerous that it is no longer done anywhere in the United States and it must be done BEFORE the zinc and Phosp is added to the oil------like a cake that has ingredients of flour, eggs, sugar and baking soda the ingredients of ZDDP must be combined and processed in a certain way (and quantity) or they don't result in ZDDP-----imagine a bowl where eggs, sugar, baking soda and flour were just thrown in---------it would have the same ingredients as a real cake but i can guarantee you which would make the best birthday cake!!!!-------testing your oil before you put it in the engine doesn't guarantee it has real zddp even if all the ingredients are there in the proper amount------if the ratios are properly balanced it is possible that it does--------- but it is no guarantee----------furthermore testing your oil AFTER it is removed from service tells even less since zinc content actually goes up as a by product of use and zddp starts depleting the moment you start your engine--------a simple chemical analysis will not actually tell if you have real ZDDP-------the chemical analysis of a living and dead horse will look identical-------i don't mean to sound trivial but a lot is taken for granted when we trust a simple chemical analysis like is provided for less than $100 bucks-----------i'll try tomorrow afternoon to touch on this subject in real detail and cover what is the difference in real zddp and just zinc and phosphorous and what is required to actually measure the quantity of zddp in motor oil....................RC

[SNOWBIRD]

Now I Am Really Confused......a Can Of Eos Was So Simple

[sailbrd]

Originally Posted by Tom Walker

who carries the AMO and ARO oils? I know my fellow Indiana turbo buds would appreciate this info...Thanks.

Any Amsoil dealer should be able to supply you with the products. Should also be available online.

[A2000RICH]

Typical oil analysis use atomic mass spectroscopy. There are various methods of performing this analysis, but the results are the same: The relative mass ratios of constituent atoms are measured. This means that in the case of Zn, the relative strength of the Zn reading is due to the TOTAL zinc in the original sample. This total Zn includes atomic Zn that is in the oil PLUS the Zn in the zinc oxide which some oil incorporates as an acidity buffer, PLUS the Zn which was a constituent of the ZDDP...
Only the Zn that is incorporated into the ZDDP molecule acts as an EP agent, so the atomic mass of all of the Zn is not an accurate measure of the ZDDP content.
There are other techniques for analyzing the molecular makeup of oil that can pinpoint the ZDDP molecule as opposed to the atomic Zn or P in the oil. One method is the FTIR (Fourier Transform InfraRed) Spectroscopy. There is a good write up on the advantages of this technique in the Sept/Oct issue of the Practicing Oil Analysis Magazine.

Molecular Spectroscopy - A Precision Lubrication Tool?

We will be posting actual ZDDP molecular test results for ZddPlus as well as a few other "lubrication products" soon. As usual, a thinking person should be skeptical of any product claims that are unsupported by actual test results, preferably multiple test results. Remember; current oil formulations are rapidly changing, and the Zn and P levels are a moving target. We believe that a test more than 90 days old needs to be viewed as a questionable representation of the currently available oil formulation.

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by SNOWBIRD

Now I Am Really Confused......a Can Of Eos Was So Simple

whats so complicated about ZddPlus???-------buy any quality oil at the local auto store, walmart etc for a couple dollars a quart and add a 9 dollar bottle and you have the performance of $40 or more of "specialty oils".........RC

[2QUIK6]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

whats so complicated about ZddPlus???-------buy any quality oil at the local auto store, walmart etc for a couple dollars a quart and add a 9 dollar bottle and you have the performance of $40 or more of "specialty oils".........RC

I undestand most of what you are saying about the analysis, but it was unclear whether or not you are supporting the claims of ZDDP in that writeup, but this statement indicates you do, correct?

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by 2QUIK6

I undestand most of what you are saying about the analysis, but it was unclear whether or not you are supporting the claims of ZDDP in that writeup, but this statement indicates you do, correct?

------i really don't think that ZDDP needs any credibility boost since it has successfully protected engines for nearly 70 years and to date no one has found a better replacement---------i am questioning the uncertainty of some of the products that claim to have adequate amounts of ZDDP and don't support it with credible evidence----------i have gone to a great expense and effort to have many of these products tested and have found that they all aren't what they claim to be.............RC

[TurboMonte 2]

Richard C, have you identified your position and interest in the use of ZddPlus product? Sorry if I missed it earlier...

[2QUIK6]

Originally Posted by TurboMonte 2

Richard C, have you identified your position and interest in the use of ZddPlus product? Sorry if I missed it earlier...

That was really my question was does ZDDPlus have the appropriate levels of ZDDP to add the needed protection and not does ZDDP itself as a compound substance work?

For the analysis mentioned above its difficult to tell if the needed amounts are in the oil after its been used. I find it interesting that Kirban is the only distributor for ZDDPlus, thats makes it look a little fishy...to me if its a proven product, why isn't theor more distributors?

[GNX243]

2Quick6
I think that if you search the EOS/ZDDP links that you will find that this issue has recently been thrust upon us. Check your local retailers and you will find that the grade of oil is now SM. I did find some SL yesterday on a few containers but most were SM.
Check the threads and you will see everyone knew the reduction in P was coming and the general feeling was buy EOS. I stopped in an out of the way dealership yesterday and the parts mgr laughed and said I would have to get in line if any was found.
So the issue is very recent. In time, given a demand (my guess is that this is a small and declining market), any number of companies may respond-but don't bet on it.

[A2000RICH]

i'll take a few minutes to kill a couple birds with one stone------my position???----I am a business man with several corporations and hundreds of employees----i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals-----i don't like golf, fishing or any other sport or pasttime------i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's and although i could afford virtually any car made i choose to drive gn's on a daily basis------years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars--------since i have such a vested interest in TR's i was naturally interested when i started to read magazine articles and internet posts about the formulation changes in motor oil------while i am not the sharpest knife in the kitchen it didn't take me long to see that this could be a problem-------at first i did what everyone else did------i went out and bought cases of EOS and Rotella diesel oil because thats what everyone said was the solution-------even at that i didn't feel comfortable since i saw those solutions as very temporary-------the more i looked into it the more worried i became------then i started having tests done on my oil stockpiles and found that the formulations were changing faster than the information in the magazines and internet posts-------i felt that there was only one solution and that was to see if i could stockpile some ZDDP-------i started on this solution last quarter of 06 and at first felt that if i could get a barrell or two of pure ZDDP i would have things covered------things were not that simple-------i started contacting oil companies and refiners-------a lot of good that did-------i knew i was in trouble when Mobil referred me to their legal dept!-------After making some contacts that didn't actually work out after a couple months i eventually got as far as several large chemical companies. Problem is that most of them had recently quit making the stuff since the worldwide demand had fallen so drastically since 2000------Best i can confirm is that there are only two plants that still make it in volume and i have an unconfirmed report that one of them has stopped recently--------next problem was that there are several types of ZDDP and several quality levels but once i was beyond that educational hurdle i managed to arrange for a shipment--------in order to get what i wanted i had to purchase 36 metric tons and then i had to arrange for it to be shipped on a Hazmat cargo ship since the stuff is so nasty in its raw form-------since i buy chemicals on a somewhat regular basis this was not really a problem------ fortunately one of my larger companies is officially classed by the EPA as a "large waste generator" so i have the facilities and people with knowhow to handle it-------my real problem was that our friends at Shell Oil somehow got in the middle of this and actually put a stop to the shipment--------seems that they also deal with this source and were able to put the screws to me-------fortunately one of my business partners is friends with the trade ambassador to the country in question and he was able to pull some strings for me and get things moving--------it took me nearly 8 months to get my shipment from the day i started to the day it landed at my dock--------i'm not going to say what i had in this project to this point but it would easily buy several nice GNX's even at todays prices--------why does dennis sell the stuff--------a couple reasons--------in order to get exactly what i wanted i had to buy a lot more than i could ever possibly use--------in discussions with dennis he expressed an interest in marketing this to the rest of the TR and old car market-------this offer seemed fine to me and we hammered out a deal--------if there had been a reasonable alternative i would never have gone to so much trouble and expense-------i have what i need and if i never sell a drop of this i can sit back and feel confident that my cars are taken care of--------i am not interested in selling oil additives and i would feel that at least some folks would be glad that dennis has worked out an arrangement that everyone can benefit from my efforts to care for my own cars--------if another suitable alternative comes along that should be even better for everyone but i have yet to see it-----------any questions please feel free to ask------- if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............

[2QUIK6]

Thanks for your hard work Richard, it was not clear that you are the hertitage of ZDDPlus. I've got 3 flat tapped motered cars and have been looking for an alternation knowing that P levels in current oils was dropping, I just didn't realize how quick that was happening.

[SloGN]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............

Richard Clark is a stand up guy. I met him a few weeks ago and got to take atour of his SHOP and it was gn/tr stuff every where!


Richard has jim got his car done yet that you know of?

I plan on stopping by again some time to chat with ya. i had a great time the last time i was there. just wanna say thanks for sharing the interest.

[2QUIK6]

What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.

[BlackMetal]

Originally Posted by 2QUIK6

What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.

Good point, might be worth stocking up now as long as it'll survive on the shelf...

[SNOWBIRD]

WELL i just bought 2 bottles of EOS at the local GM DEALER ,I am in canada and the counter person had no idea what i was talking about when i told him that this product was discontinued ..HE LAUGHED AT ME...does it say stupid on my forehead....lol ,,,,by the way the shelf was full of bottles for 8 6 4 cyl. cars

[Dewey]

My local dealer has 4 bottles but the price has also gone up to over $9 a bottle. So if all I've read here is true, the EOS is now the same price as the new additive and less effective, bottle for bottle. Suddenly ZDDPlus makes good financial sense..

[SloGN]

i called my local chevy dealer and i got to order the last 3 bottles of EOS within a 80 miles radius. I plan on ordering some zddplus from kirban. but i'm ready to fire a refreshed engine with a new used flat -tappet cam. so i plan on adding 2 bottles of eos @ start-up and then raun the motor for a bit and change it and add the last bottle. or should i just add 1 bottle of eos during break in and then add the other 2 bottles of EOS @ the next oil change? I have never broken in a new flat tappet cam. so any info of how i should best break the cam in to provided the most protection for my cam. BTW the cam came out of a already running engine i just installed it in mine with new lifters.


Thanks for all the help. i'm still learning

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by 2QUIK6

What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.

i have been asked this several times-------i cannot state with total certainty the answer------most oil companies say their products are good for at least 5 years??? ----i don't really know what that means since the dinosaurs died millions of years ago/just kidding!!!-------certainly its the additives that would determine the shelf life since i believe oil would last nearly forever until it evaporated and thats not going to happen very fast in a sealed container------heres my best educated guess at the present time and subject to change if i get better info-------my reference has always been EOS------my goal was to replace or better that product-----i had stockpiled lots of EOS and about one third of it was packaged in the two previous container designs instead of the familiar black bottle-----some of these bottles were VERY old------i tested both the old stuff and new stuff and it was essentially identical-------since ZddPlus is the exact same thing i would like to think that its would last at least as the EOS did and i know i have some that dates back at least 20+ years---------it is possible that the increased concentration could affect this since ZddPlus is 8 times more concentrated (twice as much in 4oz instead of 16oz)-----its could also be possible that the increased concentration could help it last------who knows??????------naturally i contacted the manufacturer months ago about this and their response was "indefinite" (whatever that means) as long as the container is sealed and moisture was not allowed to enter the container------it should be stored below 120F degrees -------they went on to say that if it did absorb moisture that it could be "restored" by slowly heating to 100C till it appeared clear---------it was obvious that they didnt' have customers that stored this stuff for long periods of time---------i can say that i am counting on it having a long shelf life--------perhaps if we get through the next 10 years another miracle additive will be discovered-----right now the oil companies are counting on boron for the newer cars but the demands are not so stringent as flat tappet cams-------problem for me is that boron was considered and evaluated back in the 60's and was found inferior to ZDDP which prevailed for decades...................RC

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by SloGN

Richard has jim got his car done yet that you know of?

I plan on stopping by again some time to chat with ya. i had a great time the last time i was there. just wanna say thanks for sharing the interest.

Jims car is back in the big shop on the lift------he's changing the rear back to a 342 from the 373 since he wasn't totally happy with it-----he thought it dropped his MPH at the track------he's also adding heavy duty axles with Cclip eliminators-------most folks have heard of "trailer queens"-------we tease jim and call his car a "lift queen"......................RC

[SloGN]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

Jims car is back in the big shop on the lift------he's changing the rear back to a 342 from the 373 since he wasn't totally happy with it-----he thought it dropped his MPH at the track------he's also adding heavy duty axles with Cclip eliminators-------most folks have heard of "trailer queens"-------we tease jim and call his car a "lift queen"......................RC

hahah I'll have to remember that and tease him about it.

[V6POWER]

I have known Richard for two plus years and I am amazed at his interest/dedication to the GN hobbyist/owner. He will do whatever he can to help owners with their cars and I have not seen him accept one penny for his assistance. If I had to pay him for all the work he has done on my car I would be destitute and living on the street. My wife doesn't know this, though. If you haven't seen his garages, you will be amazed at the tools, equipment, parts, and cars when you do. Richard is a straight shooter, extremely knowledgeable/intelligent and a true asset to us T-R owners.

I try to go to Richard's garage at least three times a week and during those visits I have been privy to the time and money he has invested in researching/testing and obtaining the ZDDP. This has not been a small undertaking (as he stated above) but he was committed to doing it because he saw a need for it due to the lack of critical additives in today's engine oils. He has spent a lot of money sending oil/additive samples to independent labs for analysis so he could determine what their actual contents are. We Buick owners should be very appreciative for the hard work, time, and money that Richard has invested to come up with a product that will help our engines live longer and help prevent cam lobe failure. Without his commitment, we would be SOL since EOS is no longer available and the current oils are not to the standard required for our cars. Thanks Richard for all the personal help and the ZDDP.

[TurboMonte 2]

Richard, thank you for your detailed response regarding "your position and interest...", and all the hard work towards increased longevity of our turbo Buicks. It was certainly NOT my position to try to flame you--but to bring-out your pertinent and credible background and dedication to development of this much-needed product. I felt there were some readers that were not aware of your knowledge base for ZDDP & would otherwise be more skeptical of the new product--ZddPlus.

I had been following Dennis Kirban's ongoing reporting (as a member of his "Inner Circle") of this product development and was aware of your presentation recently given at Dennis's Open House--sure wish I could have made it, but alas...

I really would like to see your facility & drool (I'll bring a bib).

As an aside, I was able to score 4 bottles of EOS several weeks ago (b4 "Open House" & your product roll-out)--but then ended up with a roller cam in engine rebuild shortly thereafter... Guess I'll test shelf life of it while perhaps waiting on acquisition of another "flat-tappet" GN.

[A2000RICH]

turbo monte------don't worry,no offense taken-----i just want guys to know what they need to know to protect their cars BEFORE its too late-----its not gonna take a lot of driving on SM oil to do irreversable damage to their TR's------i also realize that the oil additive business has a worse image than the used car salesmen and quite honestly it deserves it-----the term "snake oil" was probably coined just for that industry and i hate to be any part of it ------but with circumstances what they are i felt no other choice but to jump in and deal with the issues and all i want guys to know is : there is a real problem and there is a real solution.................RC

BTW i see you are nearby------if you ever need the use of specialized tooling or dyno time you are always welcome to visit-------its always free to guys with TR's................RC