ZDDP question

[TurboMonte 2]

Richard, thanks for the invite & opportunity. I have some other friends (old & retired also) in the area--so you never know...

Hummm, now when I get my GN out of tranny shop...

[1980monteturbo]

Hi Richard and T.B. friends

Just a quick thanks for piping in on the Z question. I have searched for info on this many times over the years. ( I had a "wiped cam" experience ) This is the most informative thread on the subject.
Looking fwd to the test results and any other links you may have bookmarked that we should read up on to further understand this urgent matter.
This thread should be considered for a "sticky" IMO.

I do have a question.
Whats your opinion on synth for flat tappet cams ?
I'm afraid to try as opinions are not consistant. I'm currently a rotella ( still have some of the the old pkg ) / EOS user on the recent rebuilt LC2.

Thanks

Steve.

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by 1980monteturbo

Hi Richard and T.B. friends


I do have a question.
Whats your opinion on synth for flat tappet cams ?
I'm afraid to try as opinions are not consistant. I'm currently a rotella ( still have some of the the old pkg ) / EOS user on the recent rebuilt LC2.

Thanks

Steve.

steve----------i'm not a tribologist------the only segment of that field that i feel well studied on is limited to the ZDDP additive------- but i am a pretty good intuitive mechanical and electrical engineer and like most i do have opinions that have been formed over the years based on experiences and exposure to information---------here goes ----------any oil has its limits for shear, temp, etc.--------and no matter what kind of oil when those limits are exceeded there is substandard performance----------in most areas of an engine oil has it pretty easy---------consider the crank journals where there is a finite space and the oil is pressurized to 20-80 psi or more and the bearing contact area is several square inches--------with the exception of dry start up no metal ever touches metal and even if it does when the oil pressure builds after a few seconds everything is fine---------consider the cam/lifter interface--------the oil supply is from splash and drip------there is no pressurized oil on the cam lobe surface-------with every rotation of the cam the oil is literally scraped and squeezed from the contact point-------even in a stock turbo regal the open spring pressure is over 200 lbs--------multiply this by the rocker ratio and then look at the actual contact area when the slightly rounded lifter face is at the peak of the rounded cam lobe---------this can result in total contact area of fractions of a square inch---------the actual pressure calculated per square inch is tens of thousands of lbs per sq inch!!!!!--------do the math it will shock you--------what does this mean?????--------there is no oil------- dino or syn that can protect this contact area UNLESS there is some kind of special additive that works outside the realm of hydroplaning-------i know that you know where this logic leads---------i really don't think it makes much difference to your cam if you use dino or syn oil as long as it has adequate additive packages to protect it---------the characteristics of synthetic oil is truly impressive but when it comes to the real world they really do little for the average car------the base oil really doesn't wear out if its physical limits are not exceeded---------oil eventually gets diluted by fuel, combustion byproducts etc,------ it gets contaminated by particulates etc, and its additives eventually wear out----------syn and non syn are plagued equally by these same problems and the additives are similar for both----------the real advantages for synthetic oils come into play at temperature extremes---------the viscosity ratings of syn and non syn 10w-30 oil are essentially similar at 0 deg and 200 deg----------where your TR engine actually operates----------its not until the temps rise or fall well in excess of this that the synthetics real advantages start to emerge---------in certain industrial, aerospace and other specialized applications synthetics really outpace regular lubricants but i really don't think it means a darn to your cam if you use syn or non syn--------i have a CTS-V that is specified to use syn but it has a 200 degree thermostat and i consider that a special application---------over the years i too have heard the claims made for synthetics as well as the supposed horror stories-------i consider the source of most of the rumors, opinions, tales etc and file them away in the "nonsense file"--------my favorite tales are the claims of increased mileage that some of the "specialty oils" claim------its interesting that those claims are usually made in the form of "customer testimonials" as opposed to legally binding corporate advertising claims------------but thats just my opinion...............................RC

[mcasteel2112]

Originally Posted by sailbrd

This is the tread I did on a response from Amsoil.
Amsoil has ZDDP

And after reading that I found some at the car quest on Corunna rd (Sail and I live in same area)and also located dealer at chets auto, i went with the 5-30 amsoil

thanks sailbrd

mike

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

i'll take a few minutes to kill a couple birds with one stone------my position???----I am a business man with several corporations and hundreds of employees----i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals-----i don't like golf, fishing or any other sport or pasttime------i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's and although i could afford virtually any car made i choose to drive gn's on a daily basis------years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars--------since i have such a vested interest in TR's i was naturally interested when i started to read magazine articles and internet posts about the formulation changes in motor oil------while i am not the sharpest knife in the kitchen it didn't take me long to see that this could be a problem-------at first i did what everyone else did------i went out and bought cases of EOS and Rotella diesel oil because thats what everyone said was the solution-------even at that i didn't feel comfortable since i saw those solutions as very temporary-------the more i looked into it the more worried i became------then i started having tests done on my oil stockpiles and found that the formulations were changing faster than the information in the magazines and internet posts-------i felt that there was only one solution and that was to see if i could stockpile some ZDDP-------i started on this solution last quarter of 06 and at first felt that if i could get a barrell or two of pure ZDDP i would have things covered------things were not that simple-------i started contacting oil companies and refiners-------a lot of good that did-------i knew i was in trouble when Mobil referred me to their legal dept!-------After making some contacts that didn't actually work out after a couple months i eventually got as far as several large chemical companies. Problem is that most of them had recently quit making the stuff since the worldwide demand had fallen so drastically since 2000------Best i can confirm is that there are only two plants that still make it in volume and i have an unconfirmed report that one of them has stopped recently--------next problem was that there are several types of ZDDP and several quality levels but once i was beyond that educational hurdle i managed to arrange for a shipment--------in order to get what i wanted i had to purchase 36 metric tons and then i had to arrange for it to be shipped on a Hazmat cargo ship since the stuff is so nasty in its raw form-------since i buy chemicals on a somewhat regular basis this was not really a problem------ fortunately one of my larger companies is officially classed by the EPA as a "large waste generator" so i have the facilities and people with knowhow to handle it-------my real problem was that our friends at Shell Oil somehow got in the middle of this and actually put a stop to the shipment--------seems that they also deal with this source and were able to put the screws to me-------fortunately one of my business partners is friends with the trade ambassador to the country in question and he was able to pull some strings for me and get things moving--------it took me nearly 8 months to get my shipment from the day i started to the day it landed at my dock--------i'm not going to say what i had in this project to this point but it would easily buy several nice GNX's even at todays prices--------why does dennis sell the stuff--------a couple reasons--------in order to get exactly what i wanted i had to buy a lot more than i could ever possibly use--------in discussions with dennis he expressed an interest in marketing this to the rest of the TR and old car market-------this offer seemed fine to me and we hammered out a deal--------if there had been a reasonable alternative i would never have gone to so much trouble and expense-------i have what i need and if i never sell a drop of this i can sit back and feel confident that my cars are taken care of--------i am not interested in selling oil additives and i would feel that at least some folks would be glad that dennis has worked out an arrangement that everyone can benefit from my efforts to care for my own cars--------if another suitable alternative comes along that should be even better for everyone but i have yet to see it-----------any questions please feel free to ask------- if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............

Who spends all this time, money and research just to ensure their oil has enough chemicals in it to help their cars. You are definitely OCD. I can't believe how similar we are. That is very strange. You are definitely a buick man. I like it.

i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals. Outstanding. So there are others like me... I have to show this to my girlfriend. (im obsessive compulsive about my car, and i spend more time with it than my girl, or friends. she's quite pissed)

i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's Where did you say you lived again? lol just kidding. If you need a live in detailer/porter, let me know lol. If I never touched another car besides a buick again, I be totally fine with that.

years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars
Wow, you think just like me. If I had all that money, that's the first thing I would have done as well. You're soo lucky.

I have learned volumes about oil content (I'm very anal as well about my oil) from reading this. Thank you soo much for doing the legwork on this. You definitely seem to be an asset to this board, with your funding, and inclination to do extensive research for our cars. Keep up the good work. I don't doubt any other members dedication, but unfortunately, ya need 3 things. And they all have to be in alignment at the same time. Time, money, and motivation. Everyone here for the most part has all 3. But it's few and far between when they appear all at the same time lol. I LOVE it, that you had all 3, and chose to dedicate that to our turbo buicks. It's a beautiful thing.

One question though. Our flat tappet cams need more protection than others because why. Is this just a function of design, or was it what our cams were made out of, and how they were heat treated. Like the old "leaded gas is for non hardened valve seats" deal. My question is, if we made our valve seats out of our newer technology metals, that reduced the need for lead, (plus the whole cat converter deal too) can we make cams that are even more wear resistant? Are todays stock replacement cams for our cars, WAY better than yesteryears? Or does that matter because it's the design that causes the failures. Tell me whatcha know.

[2QUIK6]

Originally Posted by Turbo6Smackdown

i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals. Outstanding. So there are others like me...

I do the same too....tried to use my LT1 for relaxation...it didn't work..it just got me more stressed

One question though. Our flat tappet cams need more protection than others because why. Is this just a function of design, or was it what our cams were made out of, and how they were heat treated. Like the old "leaded gas is for non hardened valve seats" deal. My question is, if we made our valve seats out of our newer technology metals, that reduced the need for lead, (plus the whole cat converter deal too) can we make cams that are even more wear resistant? Are todays stock replacement cams for our cars, WAY better than yesteryears? Or does that matter because it's the design that causes the failures. Tell me whatcha know.

I think ZDDP is important for any flat tappet cam, so the target audience is waaaayyy more than just TR's.
And about todays cams and the metal they are made from...I have a strong opinion on that...its CRAP. With the price of almost all metals skyrocketing, partly due to China buying tons of metal... Cam makers are struggling to make quality cams and keep prices down. Don't think that a roller cam is the solution, I have a roller cam I just pulled from my LT1 with light Comp Beehive springs and the preload was never more than 1/2 turn and there's 2 lobes where the roller has worn a path in almost 0.003 - 0.005" deep!! There's been several instances of fellow LT1 buds who have wiped roller cam lopes...we first thought it was faulty lifters, but now after seeing mine partially worn and now 3 or 4 others, I beleive it was first cam failure..once the path is cut deep enough it starts destroying the pins that hold the neddle bearings in the lifter bottom...soon lifter comes apart and destroyes whats left of the cam lobe. Billet cams don't seem to be the answer either as there several cases on camaroz28.com where even billet roller cams have wiped lobes..those may be lifter failure, know one will ever know unless a partially worn billet cam is discovered like mine was, which wasn't a billet cam.
I'm sure they have the technology to make the cam out of alot stronger harder metals, but would the mass of people pay that much for the product?? i think the path cam makers have went is.."oh its a roller appl'cation, the metal doesn't need to be a hard/strong as it once was..so we can make roller cams for a lot cheaper out of inferior metal, and sell then at the same prices as flat tappet cams"....

[A2000RICH]

Amen to the idea that a lot of the wear issues are related to the quality of the cam and lifter. If you look at an OEM cam and lifter (take GM for example) the cam lobe is highly phosphated at manufacture, and the lifter has a special alloy foot. After break-in, the path of the lifter foot on the cam's surface polishes a smooth shiny path on the cam. To quote an excellent paper on the subject, SAE 2004-01-2986:
"One outcome of all this (research into cam wear) activity was the standardization of hardenable alloy cast iron camshafts and lifters with a phosphate coating on the camshaft."
In this same paper the authors explain that the wear characteristics of the cam-lifter interface are largely due to the carbide properties inherent in the cam and lifter alloys. The carbides are formed during the hardening process, and the authors believe that the phosphate coating works in conjunction with the carbides in the cam and lifter to wear away the softer cam metal, leaving a carbide wear surface. This surface, if properly formed during break-in and maintained by oil with adequate ZDDP, is capable of long wear. This cam specification adoped by the OEMs years ago may not be what some aftermarket cam and lifter suppliers are using. In particular, I have not seen the hardened special alloy foot on aftermarket lifters.

[2QUIK6]

I should have posted this with my response above, but here's some pics of the said roller cam lobe....this is with a total of about 20k miles on it. The lifters BTW appeared to be just fine however I did not reuse them.



This of course was with SM oil, there should be little friction here since its a roller so I doubt even ZDDP would have aided in this instance when its simply inferior cam metal.

[TurboMonte 2]

Rob, Was this the OE cam?--if not, what was the approx. date of purchase & what brand cam was it? Also, what did you replace it (and the lifters) with??

Thanks, Monte

[2QUIK6]

Originally Posted by TurboMonte 2

Rob, Was this the OE cam?--if not, what was the approx. date of purchase & what brand cam was it? Also, what did you replace it (and the lifters) with??

Thanks, Monte

This was from my LT1 TA, not the GN, but it was a Comp cam purchased about 2 to 2.5 years ago. Replaced with an LPE cam and GM OEM lifters for a LT1, they were GM OEM lifters with this cam as well. Comp has been riddled with screwups the last few years, first their Comp R lifters started snapping keeper rings for a ton of folks, then their beehive springs started breaking after moving their manufacturer to Mexico, always buy PAC springs now, made in USA....and who knows about the cam situation.

[BILL HAINES]

I Had The Opportunity To See Richard's Presentation And Was Very Impressed. Again,as Many Have Already Said, He Has A True Love For The Buick Grand National. The Time And Dedication He Spent Is Appreciated And We All Benefit.a Good Friend Of Mine Lived Close To Richard And Worked At His Shop(s).. Any Problem Or Question About A Grand National,richard Is More Than Willing To Help Or Point You In The Correct Direction..many Thanks To Richard For His Great Wisdom And Love For The Car..oh, I Wish You All Could Hear The "wrong Wheel Drive Story..richard Is Quite A Character...

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Originally Posted by 2QUIK6

This was from my LT1 TA, not the GN, but it was a Comp cam purchased about 2 to 2.5 years ago. Replaced with an LPE cam and GM OEM lifters for a LT1, they were GM OEM lifters with this cam as well. Comp has been riddled with screwups the last few years, first their Comp R lifters started snapping keeper rings for a ton of folks, then their beehive springs started breaking after moving their manufacturer to Mexico, always buy PAC springs now, made in USA....and who knows about the cam situation.

Ahh I see now. Hmm. So do you guys think this lack of effort (is what I call it) could cross over into the rest of their products? (comp) Is all their stuff made in mexico, or just a few. I see your roller cam theory. I wouldnt doubt that one bit. So pretty much, always use the best oil and filter you can get your hands on, regardless of what you're running. (Which I do anyways. I was just thinking today, if I rebuilt my motor, and went to roller everything, would I need all this highspeed oil additive stuff? Well you just shot that theory down lol.) So theres pretty much no getting around the lack of pride and integrity of todays manufacturers. Ya just gotta go that extra step, because who knows what those fools do at those plants now. Your information is duly noted. One more thing to keep in mind. Good stuff.

(on a slightly separate note.. ya know, you used to never have to worry about what was going thru the minds of the r&d guys, engineers, architechts, qaqc guys, and the assemblers themselves, way back in the day. They focused on only one thing. to make this part to the absolute best of my ability, irregardless of whether or not this may put me out of a job ten years from now. things were SOO much more robust 30 years ago. now, in this throw away society, noone gives a crap about anything. absolute zero pride and honor today. I wouldnt fit in, in todays companies. I can see that now. I dont care if you just screwed up your job security. as a worker, the ONLY thing you should focus on, is to build the best part you possibly can. I guess I was born about 25 years too late)

[williamsGN]

Before it was 2oz treatments, now its 4 oz ? Which is it?





"Richard Clark will be speaking on this important
subject at the Sunday Night Reunion banquet. He has also been
gracious enough to donate one 2-ounce bottle of ZDDP
concentrate to every adult attending the Sunday night
Reunion Banquet. As you can imagine, the potential of this
product is enormous and you are reading about it here
first. Plus, as an Inner Circle member, you are getting
a special introductory price! We recommend you tell your
friends and you can post this information on any of the
various forums. Currently, we are the main
distributor to the performance car market.

To learn more about ZDDP, simply go on the
internet. Keep in mind, some of the information
concerning solutions will not be correct. For example:
GM no longer sells EOS. It may also be true that
certain racing single-weight oils have ZDDP in it, but
it will NOT be the proper dosage for your turbo engine.

We have included special ordering information in this
Inner Circle mailing. We are only taking orders by email
on this product to the email address listed below. Orders
will ship the week of August 27th. However, we will not
charge your credit until we process your order.

Richard has gone to great lengths to make this project happen.

It is a well-known fact among engine rebuilders and
mechanics, older engines (especially pre-1988)
that have flat tappet setups require a well-known
oil additive called "ZDDP." The additive ZDDP is made
up of Phosphorus, Sulfur, and Zinc. By using the
proper amount of these three chemicals, it makes ZDDP.
This additive has been the most effective extreme
pressure additive found in quality motor oil for
nearly 70 years. However, in recent years, this additive
has slowly been removed from the various motor oils you
can buy at the local parts store for your Turbo Regal.

For that matter, this additive is needed by not just
the Turbo Regals but all of the older performance cars.

ZDDP is a surface modifier. It modifies bearing and
journal surface characteristics to prevent metal-to-metal
contact. Under the right conditions of heat and pressure,
the zinc in the ZDDP actually plates over the contact
surface and provides a sacrificial coating. As it breaks
down, it dissipates back into the oil solution and remains in
suspension until the right conditions arise and the
process starts over again. This reduces the tendency
of parts to scuff and gall under heavy-loaded
boundary lubrication situations.

Camshafts and lifters found in high-performance
engines definitely fit this category due to high
velocities and accelerations required to open and
close valves many times per second.

This condition is also found in the piston wrist
pins. In other words, this description clearly fits
the characteristics of our Turbo Regals engines.

Normal amounts of this additive of ZDDP in 1988
API grade SG oils was in excess of 0.12%.
The API grade of oil specified for our Turbo Regal's
in 1987 was SF. SF oil had ZDDP concentrations in
excess of 0.15%.

Until recently it was considered normal to add a
bottle of GM EOS to these types of oil for engine
break-in. However, recently GM has discontinued EOS
from their product line, making it a moot point.

Upon recent testing of a sample of EOS, we found the
concentration was 0.71% by weight. Since EOS came in a
16-ounce bottle, this means to boost a modern day oil
to protect pre-1988 engines intended for normal
driving, it would require two bottles of the 16-ounce EOS.
This is a costly investment each time you do an oil change!

Now that the EPA requires new car manufacturers to
guarantee catalytic converters for over 100,000 miles,
the use of such a product would most likely void new
car warranties. Newer cars with roller rocker assemblies
do not need ZDDP.

A product such as this would probably have to carry a
warning on the label stating *OFF ROAD USE ONLY*. With
the new EPA guidelines for oil manufacturing and
grading, it is clear that without using exotic
aftermarket oils or diesel oils, currently there really
is no good choice of what to use in older cars
that require ZDDP to protect the engine internals.

There are still some single-weight oils that contain
various amounts of ZDDP for Turbo Regal engines, but
being a single-weight oil is not what is required in most
performance engines pre-1988.

Richard Clark has packaged the proper concentration
of the ZDDP formula for a typical pre-1988 engine,
put in a ready-to-use two-ounce bottle. The proper amount
specifically for a five-quart engine.

Richard expects to have the legal issues resolved and
exact correct wording on the bottles by early fall.

In the meantime, we are able to offer introductory
sample-style bottles in various packaged amounts to
accommodate your needs.

Because of our close association with Richard Clark
and his various companies, we are the main supplier
of this highly sought-after product.
Richard has been working on this project for most of
this current year. He has a number of the various
other marketed additives analyzed and determined NONE
have the proper amount of ZDDP in it for a normal
five-quart engine requiring API SF spec oil.

At our upcoming Reunion event, Richard will be giving a
presentation on this important subject and will be
presenting test results from a major independent
petroleum testing lab on oil and oil additives that
are commonly available.

Remember, one single two-ounce bottle will treat a
regular five-quart engine, such as the Turbo Regal.

You have to ask yourself... how important is the
internals of your Turbo Regal engine?

Some of you probably own other pre-1988 performance cars.
This product will work on ALL GM-Ford-Chrysler performance
engines. The list of potential buyers is endless.

This additive is virtually impossible to find in its
pure form. In very limited amounts, it can be found in
some oils and additives but this gives you the choice of
using any premium oil (this includes any synthetic and
viscosity) that you may choose.

Currently, there is no limit on how many you can
purchase at this special introductory price.

However, you must email your order. Include your name,
how many you want to order, credit card information.
Email your order to the following email address:

zddplus@kirbanperformance.com




#7176 - Single Two-Ounce Bottle of ZDDPlus $8.95

#7177 - Four-Pack of the Two-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlus $28 /four-pack

#7178 - Six-Pack of the Two-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlus $30 / six-pack"

[TurboMonte 2]

Originally Posted by 2QUIK6

This was from my LT1 TA, not the GN, but it was a Comp cam purchased about 2 to 2.5 years ago. Replaced with an LPE cam and GM OEM lifters for a LT1, they were GM OEM lifters with this cam as well. Comp has been riddled with screwups the last few years, first their Comp R lifters started snapping keeper rings for a ton of folks, then their beehive springs started breaking after moving their manufacturer to Mexico, always buy PAC springs now, made in USA....and who knows about the cam situation.

OH CRAPOLA!--My engine was just recently rebuilt with a Comp 214/214 hyd roller & attendant lifters and springs. Hopefully their BIG probs are behind them--but I'm not going to put an expensive rebuilt engine at any more risk than is necessary. I'm going to order the six-pack zddplus TODAY (& just keep my 4 bottles EOS on-hand for time being).

I was on-the-fence--but now fell off on the seemingly "redundant-safe" side!

[87gnjoe]

Richard,

I still have a case of Mobil 1 with the SL rating. It seems that the SM rated oil is the problem. Do I need to add the ZDDP Plus to the SL oil or can I save it for when I run out and need to use the new SM rated oil?

Thanks for you time, Joe

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by 87gnjoe

Richard,

I still have a case of Mobil 1 with the SL rating. It seems that the SM rated oil is the problem. Do I need to add the ZDDP Plus to the SL oil or can I save it for when I run out and need to use the new SM rated oil?

Thanks for you time, Joe

joe---------i can't really answer that question with a fact based answer--------this much i do know for sure-------the zddp levels have been dropping in all grades since SG--------the exact amount varies from brand to brand-------i am doing some research to dig into the actual additive requirements for each grade but it doesn't appear to be very simple---------in fact it may be impossible to get it exact because the grading has so many facets and many oil companies have their own additive packages--------some of the requirements are ingredient based and others are performance based--------these reductions have occured over a long time a slight amount at a time----------i remember when gas was 28 cents a gallon-------it crept up over 30 years to where it is now---------if it had happened immediately we would have been more alarmed than we are now--------if the ZDDP was totally taken out of the oil in one sweep there certainly would have been more pronounced warnings and numerous "fixes" to deal with the problem-----------i certainly ran several of my cars quite a bit with SL (SJ, SH, SG also) oil and didn't give it a thought till 3rd quarter of 06-------but i did have 2 cam related failures in that time frame on driver cars (gm OEM cams/lifters) and don't know if any of the other cars were damaged or not-------time will tell---------at the risk of sounding self serving i have to say it probably would be wise to add at least a small amount of ZDDP to even SL oils----------truth is i still have a ton of SL oil that i bought the last couple years and i add a small amount of ZDDP when i use it--------i do half the dose that i use in SM...............................RC

[fatride]

Is there any other place to buy this stuff other than sending an email with my CC info? Don't feel very safe sending my CC # via email. I tried the website also, the check out didn't work???
Thanks

[TurboMonte 2]

Originally Posted by fatride

Is there any other place to buy this stuff other than sending an email with my CC info? Don't feel very safe sending my CC # via email. I tried the website also, the check out didn't work???
Thanks

Yes, tele = 215/766-1611

[TurboMonte 2]

Originally Posted by TurboMonte 2

--but I'm not going to put an expensive rebuilt engine at any more risk than is necessary. I'm going to order the six-pack zddplus TODAY (& just keep my 4 bottles EOS on-hand for time being).

UPDATE: Ordered 6-pk zddplus; put 1 btle EOS in my 83 Riv 307 (wish it was T-Type) w/ 41k mi--but with only 2k in past 6 yrs. EOS inventory now down to just 3 btls.

ZddPlus should be here b4 GN gets back from tranny shop & I'll then add accordingly. I'm using 20W-50 Valvoline Racing Oil in it now (per builder rec'dn to accomodate my build with some looser bearing tolerances)

RICHARD C: Do you know the Zn & P content of recent/current VR1 20W-50?, and approx calendar years of transition thru the "S" series oil specs?? Like SF predecessors (SG, SH, SJ) and more recently to SM.

[87gnjoe]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

joe---------i can't really answer that question with a fact based answer--------this much i do know for sure-------the zddp levels have been dropping in all grades since SG--------the exact amount varies from brand to brand-------i am doing some research to dig into the actual additive requirements for each grade but it doesn't appear to be very simple---------in fact it may be impossible to get it exact because the grading has so many facets and many oil companies have their own additive packages--------some of the requirements are ingredient based and others are performance based--------these reductions have occured over a long time a slight amount at a time----------i remember when gas was 28 cents a gallon-------it crept up over 30 years to where it is now---------if it had happened immediately we would have been more alarmed than we are now--------if the ZDDP was totally taken out of the oil in one sweep there certainly would have been more pronounced warnings and numerous "fixes" to deal with the problem-----------i certainly ran several of my cars quite a bit with SL (SJ, SH, SG also) oil and didn't give it a thought till 3rd quarter of 06-------but i did have 2 cam related failures in that time frame on driver cars (gm OEM cams/lifters) and don't know if any of the other cars were damaged or not-------time will tell---------at the risk of sounding self serving i have to say it probably would be wise to add at least a small amount of ZDDP to even SL oils----------truth is i still have a ton of SL oil that i bought the last couple years and i add a small amount of ZDDP when i use it--------i do half the dose that i use in SM...............................RC

Richard,

Thanks for the quick response. I'll go with half on the SL. Thanks for your time and efforts. I wonder how many engines will be ruined before this becomes and public concern for the muscle car enthusiasts. Can imagine somebody with an original Hemi wiping a cam

Joe

[williamsGN]

Originally Posted by williamsGN

Before it was 2oz treatments, now its 4 oz ? Which is it?

Guess no one knows

[2QUIK6]

Originally Posted by williamsGN

Guess no one knows

My understanding was it was originally 2oz, but in order to treat a normal 5qt system, 4 oz was needed, so the packaging was changed to 4oz, basically how Dennis explained it to me as I had a question about it as the pricing I saw was 2oz bottles. There is a mix of oil and product in the bottle also as was such in the 2 oz bottle also, but the 4oz bottle has plenty of ZDDP to treat a 5qt system, bringing it to .18%

[Boost231]

so now that we have the ZDDP covered what oil should we be using this with? looks like amsoil 20-50 or royal purple. my engine builder told me to use comp cams additive since comp cam would warrenty there cam unless i use it. can i use ZDDP and comp cams additive or should i just run what my builder says? also i was told to run valvoline 20-50 conv. none street legal,

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by williamsGN

Guess no one knows

I know-------- and if it really makes a difference here's the facts------- Dennis K is a great guy but when it comes to technical things you just might not want him working on your car-------- When i first talked to dennis about my zddp stash there was no such thing as ZDDPlus --------i just had barrels of the pure stuff sitting around and i explained to dennis that it took about 2 oz of the stuff per oil change--------it wasn't until we worked out an agreement to market the zddp that the concept of ZDDPlus originated------- And for those of you that aren't totally sure ZddPlus is approx 2.2 oz of pure ZDDP added to approx 1.8 oz of 30w motor oil----------This is for several reasons not the least is that of dilution minimums required in order to ship and sell it and not have to declare it as a "hazardous substance". Here's how it breaks down------- pure zddp consists of a "saturated liquid carrier" that contains approx a total of 30% chemicals in suspension---------it takes 2.2 oz of this concentration to raise the ZDDP level of 5 qts of oil to the levels specified for SF oil--------when 1.8 oz of oil is added to this concentrate the 70% carrier and the 1.8 oz of oil reduce the chemical content to the level that it is even legal to ship it in california without the burden of declarations---------the announcement that everyone at the kirban function would get a free sample of zddp was made BEFORE dennis had even seen the product, before there was a label, and before i had investigated the legalities of shipping etc.------the only thing he knew was that they were each going to get 2 oz of zddp-----------everyone at the function in fact did get a 4 oz bottle but it only contained 2.2 oz of zddp--------the perfect amount for a single oil change in a TR using SF oil----------nothing out of order, nothing fishy, nothing dishonest................RC

[turbo nasty]

Rich how about a Turbobuicks.com member deal on ZDDPplus?
I know Dennis has it for sale, I have been a customer of his for close to ten years and respect and appreciate his contributions to the Buick community and recieve his inner circle emails monthly.
No offense, but in my experience his "deals" are not really impressive.

Thanx

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by turbo nasty

Rich how about a Turbobuicks.com member deal on ZDDPplus?
I know Dennis has it for sale, I have been a customer of his for close to ten years and respect and appreciate his contributions to the Buick community and recieve his inner circle emails monthly.
No offense, but in my experience his "deals" are not really impressive.

Thanx

we might be able to do something----------i would think you might have to get permission of the board owners/sponsors---------i really don't try to push the stuff on here------i try to stick to information and facts ----------any thoughts on this let me know..........RC

[t-topflyer]

I had a long time GN Mechanic recommend Royal Purple Full Synthetic 5W-30 to me. Anyone familiar with the protection it may offer or the lack thereof?

[turbo nasty]

Rich good point. I would just contact some moderators and ask them about a group deal/becoming a vendor. Not sure on fees though, I am sure someone will chime in.

[GNX243]

I am not sure you are following the correct procedure for discounting ZDDPlus.
First, Kirban Performance Products is a supporter of this site. I realize just as you do that he is in business and has expenses and do not expect him to operate at a loss. Further, I do not know where you folks are obtaining the costs for mfg, & distributing ZDDPlus to say his price is no bargain. Do you know of another vendor who is offering it for less?
Secondly, there is a section for sale items on this site (frankly I find few bargains there). Occassionally I have read posts where someone offers to provide a product-such as a gps alarm system- at wholesale but I would think the correct location of the posting should be in the sale section.
Thirdly, every time I have gone to the mfg they have referred me to the local distributor where there is one. Occassionally the mfg provides a coupon or the distributor runs a loss leader (e.g. passes out a sample/offers an introductory price) to expose individuals to a new product and their services but that is done thru the distributor.
Although I have dealt with Dennis for over 17 years, I have no interest-financial or otherwise- in supporting him but feel he is the one who should be contacted (either by individuals or the mfg) to provide any offer on this site.

[turbo nasty]

Originally Posted by GNX243

I am not sure you are following the correct procedure for discounting ZDDPlus.
First, Kirban Performance Products is a supporter of this site. I realize just as you do that he is in business and has expenses and do not expect him to operate at a loss. Further, I do not know where you folks are obtaining the costs for mfg, & distributing ZDDPlus to say his price is no bargain. Do you know of another vendor who is offering it for less?
Secondly, there is a section for sale items on this site (frankly I find few bargains there). Occassionally I have read posts where someone offers to provide a product-such as a gps alarm system- at wholesale but I would think the correct location of the posting should be in the sale section.
Thirdly, every time I have gone to the mfg they have referred me to the local distributor where there is one. Occassionally the mfg provides a coupon or the distributor runs a loss leader (e.g. passes out a sample/offers an introductory price) to expose individuals to a new product and their services but that is done thru the distributor.
Although I have dealt with Dennis for over 17 years, I have no interest-financial or otherwise- in supporting him but feel he is the one who should be contacted (either by individuals or the mfg) to provide any offer on this site.

Procedure????
FWIW... Rich is the Guy that Dennis gets his ZDDP from so u cant get anycloser than that. Dennis is the middle man.
Rich is the Supplier if u will.

[Way2QWK]

I have finally decided on amsoil synthetic 10-40 oil. About $7.00 a quart. Still unsure on the gasoline blend or the 4 stroke motorcycle blend. Going to contact amsoil for their opinion. The research I have found on royal purple indicates it does not do well in wear testing. I did use it for two oil changes years ago and the motor never ran smoother with that oil.

[BlackMetal]

Originally Posted by Way2QWK

The research I have found on royal purple indicates it does not do well in wear testing.

Can you share this information. Some reading I did recently suggested just the OPPOSITE, in a wear test Royal Purple beat most of the competition.

[t-topflyer]

Originally Posted by Turbo6Chicago

Can you share this information. Some reading I did recently suggested just the OPPOSITE, in a wear test Royal Purple beat most of the competition.

Below is the question I asked Royal Purple and the response I received. I have ordered some ZDDPlus, but now I am concerned about "over-additizing" with the addition of ZDDPlus to some oils, especially Royal Purple. Not sure what if any harm that could cause.


QUESTION BY ME I have an 87 Buick Grand National with the turbocharged 3.8 L. There has recently been a major concern in our community about the decline of ZDDP content in the oils on the market. As you probably know, when our cars came out new, API SF oil was the recommended oil, and contained adequate amounts of ZDDP which allowed for proper protection of these engines. Since then, ZDDP content has only declined. I had a local enthusiast recommend your brand oil to me. Recently a product called ZDDPlus has become available that is supposed to restore any oil back to factory specs. I would prefer not to have to supplement the oil. With that in mind, is there a way for me to find out if any of your oils contain the proper amounts of ZDDP to protect my engine so that I can have it all in one product? I did recently do an oil change with Royal Purple 5W-30 full synthetic in my car of interest. Could I get any information on the ZDDP content of that? thanks


RESPONSE BY ROYAL PURPLE REPRESENTATIVE



Thanks for your email.

For your Buick Grand National, all Royal Purple Motor Oils, from our street API Licensed Oils to the XPR Racing oils could be used as they all have superior antiwear properties and the added protection of the RP Synerlec Additive Technology in all of the products which gives Royal Purple's oils 4 times the film strength of other products.

Due to this performance - Royal Purple does not recommend the addition of any aftermarket additives to our products.

I am not familiar with ZDDPlus but one of the dangers of over additizing an oil is that you may effect the solubility of the oil (i.e., the ability of the oil to keep all the additives in solution) which could lead to additive dropout - which could drastically effect the performance of the oil.
Over additizing with ZDDP type components can also lead to exhaust deposits due to the higher metallic ash content......

Royal Purple 5W30 or 10W30 is API SL and has an excellent antiwear package to protect flat tappet applications.
The additive package content is the maximum allowed to still be API Licensed to the API SL Service Classification.
If you are looking for the most robust antiwear package, consider our XPR 5W30 oil, which would have roughly 160-17-% more antiwear additive than the API versions we sell.

Sincerely,

David


Royal Purple Inc
David Canitz
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX 77365
281.354.8600
281.354.7600 fax
713.725,7207 cell
dcanitz@royalpurple.com

[Way2QWK]

Royal Purple vs AMSOIL

synthetic oil comparison - Royal Purple Mobil 1 Castrol Redline Amsoil

Bob Is The Oil Guy: royal purple

thats all the links I have saved. spend 4 hours looking at multiple car and oil boards. The general consensus I found was Royal purple does not hold up well for wear. Amsoil has consistently ranked higher from what i have seen.

[t-topflyer]

Originally Posted by Way2QWK

Royal Purple vs AMSOIL

synthetic oil comparison - Royal Purple Mobil 1 Castrol Redline Amsoil

Bob Is The Oil Guy: royal purple

thats all the links I have saved. spend 4 hours looking at multiple car and oil boards. The general consensus I found was Royal purple does not hold up well for wear. Amsoil has consistently ranked higher from what i have seen.

All of those links look to be sponsored/funded by Amsoil so I would wonder if the conclusions can be taken as concrete evidence. We would really need a double-blind study without any affiliation to any company to come to get the "truth".