Debate on E85... why use it??

[BlackoutDrunk]

I know around chicago standard amount of ethanol in the gas is 10%. So all these years I should of been worried about my fuel filters or does anyone know if only higher amounts kill the fuel filters? As of now I only want to make sure I'm safe to use some E85 as an octane booster maybe 10-20% in 93 octane gas. How many people have been using it in this manner and are there any negative side effects to report? Maybe this is a subject for another thread or maybe someone knows another thread in which this is being looked at?

[RobS]

1. It takes 7 barrel's of OIL to produce 8 barrel's of E85:

I would like to see a copy of this report as well. The best I could calculate is 1 barrel of oil is enough for 3 barrels of e85. They must be converting the energy required to produce e85 into barrels of oil and adding it to the oil in the e85.

[Hot Air]

That question leads one to ask...How many barrels of oil does it take to make a barrel of gasoline? I suspect that it's not close to "one for one" since the crude oil has to be refined to make gasoline.

Then we need to ask the question...How many barrels of oil does it take to get the barrel of oil from the Middle East to US? Then you have to ask what feedstock (corn, prairie grass, sage brush, etc) is used to make the E85. Then you need to ask.........oh well, enough of that.

My point is that the raw material for ethanol can be a USA product and it is 105 octane and does have a cooling effect on the engine (less detonation so more boost) and doesn't currently cost $5-6 (racing gasoline). Besides, the price of a barrel of crude oil just topped $100 and some say it is headed toward $200! I just don't see how E85 can that be worse than gasoline?

Will E85 replace gasoline as the fuel of choice in USA? Not likely. But it does at least offer us a choice and for the turbocharged community, it looks great from where I stand.

Conrad

ps...I have a copy of the report somewhere on my PC and will try to find it.

[RobS]

Conrad, I happen to agree with you. I think e85 is an excellent replacement for the 100 octane unleaded I am currently using. The only downside I can see is the possible problem with aluminum. The Hot Rod magazine article on e85 said ethanol will corrode naked aluminum. My concern would be with the intake manifold. Is cast aluminum considered naked? When I seen the post about 7 barrels of oil needed for 8 barrels of e85, it didn't sound right to me. I don't have any facts to support my 'opinion'. So I was intrested in the report to educate myself. I would love to fill up with e85 with the only fuel system changes being bigger injectors and a new chip.
Rob

[bobc455]

I know this is kinda off-topic, but when you consider the US' trade deficit, it is no small thing to become self-sufficient for energy. We are sending billions and trillions over to the middle-east, and it really takes a huge toll on the US economy.

Of course the US could not sustain enough corn output to become self-reliant, but it is one important step. (Actually from what I understand hemp is an extremely efficient source for ethanol, and has huge benefits for the soil when used for crop rotation, but the US government is sure to ignore that because of the "war on drugs" nonsense. What a pity.) If we could eliminate (or greatly reduce) the trade deficit, it would go a long way toward eliminating the national debt, which would also have huge benefits.

Hope this does not ignite a political discussion- just giving my $0.02 on E-85.

-Bob Cunningham

[Hot Air]

Rob,
Several members have indicated no major problems running E85 for several years now. I'm not so much worried about about the intake manifold as I am my Champion aluminum fuel rails and fuel pump/FPR. I am ready to upgrade fuel injectors, pump and FPR so I don't run out of fuel and just "go for it" and see what, if anything, fails long term.

Since E85 requires ~30% more volume, you need to look closely at the capability of your fuel pump and pump wiring. The pump will have to put out more pressure to move the additional volume of fuel through the supply and return lines. Unfortunately, fuel pumps don't work that way...as the pressure goes up, the volume goes down! If you have an excess of fuel pump capacity, you may be ok. You need to run some calculations to be sure. Be Careful!!

Did you see the Mar 08 issue of Car Craft? There is an article entitled, "Seven Cars: 9,565 Horsepower". Page 77 contains the following sentence (next to the last pararaph, the last sentence), "This ethanol (E85) blend was especially helpful for the supercharged and turbocharged engines because of E85's outstanding ability to pull heat out of a compressed charge."

All of the contestants ran E85!

Conrad

[vacuum 6]

Originally Posted by callmeebryan

Pros:
Releives our dependency on foriegn oil supplies.

Cons:
You must use about 180% the amount as you would with gasoline (LESS MPG)
Not very many pumps that sell this stuff nationwide.

E85 is NOT the answer to this country's fuel problems!!!!!!!!

Agree with all the above. I will be using it in the Buick come spring cuz of the octane rating and cooling effect. Maybe someday the price will come down. IMO - its not the answer to our fuel problem long-term but its a start...remember baby steps, no way we can get up and run on this one.

[GNVYUS 1]

The combination of future technologies is going to happen first. An E85 hybrid battery motor sounds more practical then ever, how about E85 and fuel cell or hydrogen hybrids in the future?? Car companies are finding ways to be more efficient with E85 so the MPG does not drop off. The stuff is about 5% more powerful then gas so just give them some time to really engineer around the stuff, they will do it.

New cars will be off oil in the near future by combining technologies, so the more people that use E85, the infrastructure will be there to move on beyond oil. And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

[bsdlinux]

Originally Posted by RobS

Conrad, I happen to agree with you. I think e85 is an excellent replacement for the 100 octane unleaded I am currently using. The only downside I can see is the possible problem with aluminum. The Hot Rod magazine article on e85 said ethanol will corrode naked aluminum. My concern would be with the intake manifold. Is cast aluminum considered naked? When I seen the post about 7 barrels of oil needed for 8 barrels of e85, it didn't sound right to me. I don't have any facts to support my 'opinion'. So I was intrested in the report to educate myself. I would love to fill up with e85 with the only fuel system changes being bigger injectors and a new chip.
Rob

In what context?? CARB or FI motors. I bet they were talking about carbs.
I haven't read the atricle myself.
Carbs have both aluminum and cadmium plated metals in them. Cadmium being the worst of the two. Most of the corrosion information always seems to in connection with CARBed motors. I haven't see any imperical evidence that FI systems are at "RISK" for corrosion type problem. I've run this stuff for a very long time now. I've had my fuel rail, injectors out looking for it. Guess what?? None yet. Also you've got to be kidding me on the intake question. Put some E-85 on your finger and see how long it lasts, much less in a engine at temp..LOL no worries there I assure you. If the METH injection guys aren't having corrsion issues in the intake, no way in hell the E-85 in going to do it. Ethanol is a VERY VERY distant cousin to Meth and has no where the corrosion properties of METH>

[bsdlinux]

Originally Posted by DR.BOOSTER

And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

Agreed. Someone has been studying

[Hot Air]

Wow! We are getting some GREAT discussions here.
Conrad

[Mac in SD]

I haven't tried it yet, but I don't understand why some of you guys are so hard-over against it.

From a turbo point of view, it makes all the sense in the world to try it if you can get it. Regardless of whether it's the answer to foriegn oil dependence or the balance of trade, it's 105 octane and as cheap as, or cheaper than, pump gasoline.

When I get done with all my home improvement manual labors, I'm going to tweak my MAFT and play with it. Kudos to all you guys working with it already.

[RobS]

Bsdlinux, I have no experience running e85. There are people such as yourself that run it and have no issues. That is good information. I am trying to gather information to make sure there are no issues with e85 and my fuel system. The questions I havn't seen answered is: when is the walbro 340 fuel pump maxed out when running straight e85, when is the stock fuel line too small for straight e85 and are the rear bumper fillers made of polyurethane? I am still looking for the website that said there is a servere reaction with ethanol and polyurethane. Maybe the Hotrod article was referring to carbed motors. It didn't say.

[RobS]

Cole-Parmer: Chemical Resistance Database
Is the website that suggested there is a comptability issue with polyurethane

[MrMNTTA]

Originally Posted by DR.BOOSTER

The combination of future technologies is going to happen first. An E85 hybrid battery motor sounds more practical then ever, how about E85 and fuel cell or hydrogen hybrids in the future?? Car companies are finding ways to be more efficient with E85 so the MPG does not drop off. The stuff is about 5% more powerful then gas so just give them some time to really engineer around the stuff, they will do it.

New cars will be off oil in the near future by combining technologies, so the more people that use E85, the infrastructure will be there to move on beyond oil. And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

Amen!

[MrMNTTA]

Originally Posted by RobS

Bsdlinux, I have no experience running e85. There are people such as yourself that run it and have no issues. That is good information. I am trying to gather information to make sure there are no issues with e85 and my fuel system. The questions I havn't seen answered is: when is the walbro 340 fuel pump maxed out when running straight e85, when is the stock fuel line too small for straight e85 and are the rear bumper fillers made of polyurethane? I am still looking for the website that said there is a servere reaction with ethanol and polyurethane. Maybe the Hotrod article was referring to carbed motors. It didn't say.

As far as carbs go, it's necessary to change out the seals since the 'normal' seals will dry out. The seals should be changed to viton seals.

I'm unsure about the polyurethane issue.

[ronbuick]

Dr. you are right about the switchgrass and that kinda of stuff, which I beleive is called cellulosic, from what I understand that is the way to go
from the little research that I have done on Ethanol. Plus it produces a better quality product and the green house gases are way less then with the corn.

Ron

[MrMNTTA]

Originally Posted by ronbuick

Dr. you are right about the switchgrass and that kinda of stuff, which I beleive is called cellulosic, from what I understand that is the way to go
from the little research that I have done on Ethanol. Plus it produces a better quality product and the green house gases are way less then with the corn.

Ron

Cellulosic is the way of the future, but until it becomes cost effective and energy efficient, it isn't viable. Technology will take us there eventually. My hope is that it can be happening on a large scale within 15 years.

I'm unclear on what you mean by "it (cellulosic compared to corn) produces a better quality product". What do you mean by that?