audio ?

[tdd]

I'm troubleshooting some problems with my car and the ? i have is can a power capacitor keep your car from cranking.if i let it sit after driving it will crank but immediately after i shut down and go to start it wont fire .

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by tdd

I'm troubleshooting some problems with my car and the ? i have is can a power capacitor keep your car from cranking.if i let it sit after driving it will crank but immediately after i shut down and go to start it wont fire .

you can rest assured that it is not the cap--------could be batt, wiring connections, starter or park/neutral switch switch, solenoid or starter........................RC

[tdd]

we changed the whole wiring harness and the park/neutral switch switch is not hooked up.tested battery and alternator said it was good and charging.as a matter of fact we changed coil pack,ecm ,crank sen,when i unhooked the power wire to stereo it was doing better it would crank up fine but when i hooked the power wire back up and drove home shut her down and tried 2 crank and it just spent over never fired up ,if i wait about 20 min it will fire.today im going to change spark plugs o2 sen and unhook power cable to c what that does.

[tdd]

i think it had something to do with audio set up,i disconnected power wire and drove around for about 20 min. shut down and she fired up fine.my setup consist of a 1600watt ultra linear amp a 800 watt and 2 2500 watt Visonik 12s.and a 1.5 farad power cap.i took power cap out and put power cable back on battery and it seems to be working fine.maybe i had to much stuff ????????

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by tdd

i think it had something to do with audio set up,i disconnected power wire and drove around for about 20 min. shut down and she fired up fine.my setup consist of a 1600watt ultra linear amp a 800 watt and 2 2500 watt Visonik 12s.and a 1.5 farad power cap.i took power cap out and put power cable back on battery and it seems to be working fine.maybe i had to much stuff ????????

tdd-------better keep looking------if your car will start after sitting for a while but will not start immediately after turning off it isn't the stereo-------there are ways a stereo can affect how a car starts but yours doesn't fall into any of those catagories------1-a stereo can drain a battery if played or left on with the engine off for too long, its sort of like leaving the headlights on with the car parked---------2-a stereo can slowly drain a battery if left connected even if it is turned off just like the engine computer will------but it will usually take several weeks if the battery is good to begin with-------and -3 a stereo can be so large that it can drain the battery even if the engine is running due to sheer power demands placed on the electrical system because the alternator can't keep up, your system is not even close to being big enough for this to happen-----just in case you want to know how that factors out heres the rough math------the only thing thats going to draw real power is the amplifier-------its a 1600 watt amp-----consider normal amplifier efficiency at 50%, so that would be a total power consumption of 3200 watts at full power, then factor in a duty cycle of music (even loud highly distorted music) at no higher than 10% and that works out to about 320 watts---------thats less than 25% of the capacity of your TR's alternator rating of 1700 watts--------------its just not feasable that your stereo would cause the problem you describe......................RC

[SGRIM]

Originally Posted by A2000RICH

tdd-------better keep looking------if your car will start after sitting for a while but will not start immediately after turning off it isn't the stereo-------there are ways a stereo can affect how a car starts but yours doesn't fall into any of those catagories------1-a stereo can drain a battery if played or left on with the engine off for too long, its sort of like leaving the headlights on with the car parked---------2-a stereo can slowly drain a battery if left connected even if it is turned off just like the engine computer will------but it will usually take several weeks if the battery is good to begin with-------and -3 a stereo can be so large that it can drain the battery even if the engine is running due to sheer power demands placed on the electrical system because the alternator can't keep up, your system is not even close to being big enough for this to happen-----just in case you want to know how that factors out heres the rough math------the only thing thats going to draw real power is the amplifier-------its a 1600 watt amp-----consider normal amplifier efficiency at 50%, so that would be a total power consumption of 3200 watts at full power, then factor in a duty cycle of music (even loud highly distorted music) at no higher than 10% and that works out to about 320 watts---------thats less than 25% of the capacity of your TR's alternator rating of 1700 watts--------------its just not feasable that your stereo would cause the problem you describe......................RC

Agreed! Mr. Clark is an EXPERT here, trust him!

[SGRIM]

Originally Posted by gomezdave

consult it to the engine expert

Originally Posted by gomezdave

oh i was not able to noticed it. I believed too

What

[Jarnutt]

You have problems deeper than an improperly wired audio system. When the key is off, the equipment (if wired properly) are also off, and the power demand is almost nothing, even an inline stiffening cap or two have no power draw when there is no demand. If all your little red lights turn off when the key is off, you might be chasing an electrical gremlin like i did with my starter system once upon a time. Another thing you can check is the status of your stiffening caps, Unhook them and shake them next to your ear, if they sound like they have water in them, they are shorted anyways, and are no longer good. Sometimes they only live about a year, sometimes longer, but I have never seen a cap live longer than a year or two and not lose at least half of its efficiency. I dont know if that would cause a problem with starting, and I doubt it, but you never know.

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by Jarnutt

You have problems deeper than an improperly wired audio system. When the key is off, the equipment (if wired properly) are also off, and the power demand is almost nothing, even an inline stiffening cap or two have no power draw when there is no demand. If all your little red lights turn off when the key is off, you might be chasing an electrical gremlin like i did with my starter system once upon a time. Another thing you can check is the status of your stiffening caps, Unhook them and shake them next to your ear, if they sound like they have water in them, they are shorted anyways, and are no longer good. Sometimes they only live about a year, sometimes longer, but I have never seen a cap live longer than a year or two and not lose at least half of its efficiency. I dont know if that would cause a problem with starting, and I doubt it, but you never know.

where did you get these notions?????------caps that only last a year----what kind of caps are they------i have installed lliterally hundreds of thousands of large value electrolytic caps in industrial equipment over the last 30 years and most of them are still good-----its not unusual to find them with 50% of their original capacity after several decades of use-------in a car caps have it easy------they charge to the 12 to 14 volts of the car and see little ripple-------in an industrial powersupply where they are used in full wave bridges to rectify AC they are subject to large 120 HZ ripple variations------- that causes heating and that can drie out the electrolyte-----thats what kills them in use--------its a rare cap that fails in a car unless its some new kind of ultra junko brand i haven't seen--------even the cheapo Chinese caps that most car audio shops sell are better than that------i have a $22,000 HP inpedance bridge that measures capacity, inductance, ESL, ESR and dissipation of caps and I have measured thousands of large can electrolytic caps and i just don't agree with your assesment of cap life-------its simply not true------sounds like water in them???-------a large cap (one to two farad) has less than an ounce of ethelene glycol and its spread out between several yards of plate material------cut one open and all you will find is a modest amount of dampness on the plates----------theres no place for a liquid to accumulate and no place for it to originate-------a shorted cap??? a shorted electrolytic cap will immediately heat up and burst its vent cap which is a small rubber plug designed to allow excess pressure to escape-----such will render it valueless and leave it an "open" circuit-------perhaps you should study up on capacitors and perhaps dissect a few-------you will find it interesting and informative...................RC

[Jarnutt]

MY notions? They come from being in the field for enough years to have seen plenty. I never said anything about industrial, Im talking about car audio. The caps made by MTX, Lightning, and Rockford Fosgate are the most common that I had installed over the years, and if you read, I said SOMETIMES dont last over a year, and yes I HAVE NEVER seen a cap last longer than two years and not need to be recharged more and more often due to it losing its efficiency. The caps produced by Rockford and MTX are made locally here in Phoenix, Ive seen the assembly line, there are honest hard working americans making them, not chinese infants, they are designed differently than those made for industrial applications. As far as the small amount of fluid you claim is inside, if you have never SEEN a bad cap in the audio industry, and held it up to your ear and shook it, then you have no idea what Im even talking about. This was no hobby for me, IT WAS MY JOB. I am an MECP certified Installer, I gained my master installer certification after four years installing for Ultimate electronics. Car audio is nothing new to me, and since everyone claims to know more than everyone else when it comes to cars, guess what, its great that someone may have been installing stereos for 30 years, but last time I checked, the technology in todays stereos far exceeds the 8 tracks and cassette decks of yesteryear. Satellite radio and MP3 CD player didnt exist ten years ago in cars, and I was there to learn from the manufacturers how to deal with the demand for the "new technology". So next time you start spouting off about how I need to learn, I DID LEARN, I dont need to dissect anything, the manufacturer takes the bad equipment back within the first year and replaces it, because it is in fact, BAD at that point. Its not my imagination, nor anyone I have ever worked with, they are not designed to deal with 120hz or large amaounts of A/C voltage, they are simply used to prevent the headlights from dimming and a large amount of strain on the alternator on a high power demand system. Youre never going to agree with me, but I cant stand by and let you bad mouth something I have first hand experience with since I started installing professionally, with proper training and credentials to back me up, paid by the manufacturers of the equipment I was supposed to install and sell. I will state again, this was not a hobby, I installed 40+ hours a week as my 9-5, seeing as many as 30 cars per day, everything from piece of crap ford escorts, to right hand drive Skyline R33s. I HAVE SEEN ALOT, and done alot, and I thought I was very helpful trying to supply advice, whether you agree to it or not. no amount of -------- or ??????? is going to make me take back the help Im trying to offer someone.
You get these by knowing what youre doing, these are all thats left of my days installing under a corporation. And if you do your research, youll find that you dont get your first class certification until you have installed a minimum of two years and pass the ASE A6 AND first class test. This was a couple years before I recieved my first class.

[Jarnutt]

I kind of jumped off there a bit, Im not tryingto make enemies, I just dont like being told I dont know what Im talking about. You get that after years of kids coming in arguing with you about information they get from friends, not to mention fixing the installs they had friends do for them that ended tragically.

[A2000RICH]

Originally Posted by Jarnutt

I kind of jumped off there a bit, Im not tryingto make enemies, I just dont like being told I dont know what Im talking about. You get that after years of kids coming in arguing with you about information they get from friends, not to mention fixing the installs they had friends do for them that ended tragically.

the only info that is worse than kids is notions from installers that believe in techno-voodo------

some info for you-------i wrote a lot of the questions on the master installer test along with my partner dave navone-------and was granted a honary "master installer" certification for my contributions and was consulted for numerous years for advice on revisions till i no longer had the time or interest---------i was also the person that introduced large can stiffining caps to the car audio competition world-----did it in 1989 when i installed them in my IASCA car-------it was so strange at the time that i was disqualified from competition till the rules and ethics board could review it------NO ONE in the car audio world even understood what it was all about-----it wasn't till dave and i wrote articles for Car audio and electronics and our own autosound tech briefs that anyone in car audio even understood what they were for-------do some research-------want to know some more info???-------dave and i designed the VERY first stiffening caps for car audio use------we started with large can electrotyics and modified them for more capacity and lower ESL with perforated plates------unheard of at the time--------we contracted with Sprague to make them----they had a plant near where i live in NC------this was in 1990 and we sold them to EVERYONE-------thats how Lightening audio got started------if scott dealey is still around ask him how he got started-------we sold them to ron trout at rockford------manville smith at JL audio--------larry fredrick at Phoenix gold---------lloyd ivey at MTX-------noel lee at monster cable------the list is endless------we sold tens of thousands of them and for nearly two years we were the only source for them-------talk to someone that was in the know back in that time period--------EVERYONE for nearly two years till they managed to find other companies to make them for them--------need more proof????-----go the the web site of the us patent and trademark office------look up "stiffening cap"--------see whose name was on the application back in 1991---------as for audio and electronic experience i can't begin to cover it but since you have roots to MTX why don't you ask Lloyd Ivey(he ownes MTX if you don't know it) about my experience--------in 1996/7 he wanted his products to make a showing at the world finals in the IASCA circuit------he contracted with myself and dave navone to oversee the Thunderforce Competition team-----we won over half the classes those two years-------i'm sure you know who wayne harris is of db drag fame------call him and ask him what he thinks of my knowledge and experience------ask him how many of my seminars he has personally attended----------i don't care how much "job" experiene you think you have---perhaps you would have benefited from a little technical education instead of seat of the pants install bay learning--------i have decades of electronic and audio education and experience in sound reinforcement, studio recording, component design as well as car audio--------as for capacitors I know more about capacitor design than anyone else in car audio and I say that with zero modesty--------what you say is simply wrong............RC

[GregInAtl]

Jarnutt, I appreciate you have earned a right to an opinion here, but I dont think a best buy certification, along w/ MECP exactly mean you have knowledge in theory, only practice and install ability. Not to throw stones, but what you were learning in these classes, is what RC taught the people who taught the guy who taught your instructor. I too like you have tons of real world experience, but RC is one of 2 guys who honestly do know more than everyone else in theory and application. Just a little advise, just let it go.

[Jarnutt]

This started with someone who asked for help. I simply suggested since his caps were already disconnected, to check them to see if they are still good. Obviously only one person is allowed an opinion in threads anymore. This isn't something I made up, it has happened more than once, meaning it is in fact possible. Just to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me I called my friend sean from rockford fosgate at the tech bench, and he verified, yes, it does in fact happen, the cap loses its charge and turns into what he calls a 'soda can'. I may not know theory behind why it happens, but you don't have to know why something is broken to know that it is broken. I'm finished, no more from me, my opinions are now kept to myself.

[dnavone]

Richard Clark and I first trademarked the Stiffening Capacitor (United States Patent and Trademark Office Home Page = 2,819,757) back in the early 1990s... There is no water in them and Rockford, MTX, Lightning Audio, etc. certainly do not manufacture Stiffening Capacitors. They buy them from companies that have perfected a 100+ year old design... Modern Stiffening Capacitors utilize etched aluimum material that trememdously increases their capacity per unit area. This etching process is incredibly difficult to perform and requires a extremely controlled production process.

I talked with Ron Trout at Rockford today.. He's been with Rockford engineering / management for 20+ years... and he has never heard of a Stiffening Capacitor becoming defective in one or two years. I've still got one of the original 800,000 mfd Stiffening Capacitor protypes from 1991... And it charges / discharges just fine.. at over 20 Volts DC. Of course, the charge will deplete even if the electrodes are open to the atomsphere... but this Stiffening Capacitor is 16 years old and works just fine. This is normal for any capacitor. They discharge. And they charge.

[raymon823]

Originally Posted by Jarnutt

This started with someone who asked for help. I simply suggested since his caps were already disconnected, to check them to see if they are still good. Obviously only one person is allowed an opinion in threads anymore. This isn't something I made up, it has happened more than once, meaning it is in fact possible. Just to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me I called my friend sean from rockford fosgate at the tech bench, and he verified, yes, it does in fact happen, the cap loses its charge and turns into what he calls a 'soda can'. I may not know theory behind why it happens, but you don't have to know why something is broken to know that it is broken. I'm finished, no more from me, my opinions are now kept to myself.

Do you even realize who Richard Clark is? your an installer is and you dont realize who your talking to wow

[Jarnutt]

Originally Posted by raymon823

Do you even realize who Richard Clark is? your an installer is and you dont realize who your talking to wow

The only Richard Clark I know of is the one who was on the 9/11 commission. Im sorry, I must have skipped the memo that told me I couldnt install until I knew who everyone important to you was.

[SGRIM]

Originally Posted by Jarnutt