Advancement of fuel delivery?

[DonWG]

I'm finishing up a major rework of my fuel system. I separated my auxiliary fuel from my nitrous system and added a plastic internal fuel rail inside my plenum. The fuel rail will have Kinsler aerated nozzles pointing down each intake runner. It will be a constant flow setup controlled by an electric solenoid via a manifold pressure switch and GPO control. It will be supplied by the EFI fuel delivery system. Turn on point will be 16 psi.

This will make the nitrous system totally separate from the control of the main fuel system and will give me much more flexibility on how and when to use the nitrous injection. With the added freedom of control of the nitrous system, I can now research some nitrous components and control systems that will allow me to precisely control nitrous injection throughout the run. Provide a major hit at the start for spool up, then back off the amount for the remainder of the run.

What do you think?

[Boost231]

wow you never cease to amaze me.

[Chevota]

Originally Posted by DonWG

I'm finishing up a major rework of my fuel system. I separated my auxiliary fuel from my nitrous system and added a plastic internal fuel rail inside my plenum. The fuel rail will have Kinsler aerated nozzles pointing down each intake runner. It will be a constant flow setup controlled by an electric solenoid via a manifold pressure switch and GPO control. It will be supplied by the EFI fuel delivery system. Turn on point will be 16 psi.

This will make the nitrous system totally separate from the control of the main fuel system and will give me much more flexibility on how and when to use the nitrous injection. With the added freedom of control of the nitrous system, I can now research some nitrous components and control systems that will allow me to precisely control nitrous injection throughout the run. Provide a major hit at the start for spool up, then back off the amount for the remainder of the run.

What do you think?

What EFI system are you using Don? The XFI does all of that without the need for seperate components and control systems.

Scott Wile

[DonWG]

The Tec3r will do it too, but after doing some research on PWing nitrous solenoids, I've learned that the popular current components are not reliable. I'm looking at the WON components and controller. The solenoids and controllers are purpose built for each other.

[Chevota]

Originally Posted by DonWG

The Tec3r will do it too, but after doing some research on PWing nitrous solenoids, I've learned that the popular current components are not reliable. I'm looking at the WON components and controller. The solenoids and controllers are purpose built for each other.

I see. Will you make it to the WCN this year?

scott wile

[DonWG]

Not sure yet.

Congrats on the new times. I think I read you got her into the eights. Way to go.

[Chevota]

Thank you sir. Maybe one of these days we can compare strategies.

scott wile

[DonWG]

Anytime. I'm always open for that.

[Lonnie]

Don,
I was contemplating the same thing a while back with the aerated nozzles, but the tech people selling them were clueless with respect to flows, pressures etc. Maybe you had better luck than me.

If you could send me your phone #, I'd be glad to call & compare notes.

My e-mail is sales@lonniesperformance.com

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Don,
I was contemplating the same thing a while back with the aerated nozzles, but the tech people selling them were clueless with respect to flows, pressures etc. Maybe you had better luck than me.

If you could send me your phone #, I'd be glad to call & compare notes.

My e-mail is sales@lonniesperformance.com

Sent. Look forward to the conversation.

[DonWG]

It worked! This last weekend was the first testing of the new system. There is a small time delay from when the fuel rail solenoid is activated to when fuel begins to flow from the nozzles. That's due to the volume of space from the solenoid to the nozzles. It caused a lean spot and some rough running for a split second. I'll need to adjust the point where I cut back the PW of the electronic injectors in the fuel map to compensate for the delay. A set of secondary electronic injectors mounted in the plenum with a flow through fuel rail would work out much better. Wouldn't have to worry about any delay after activation. The orifice of the nozzles were a tad bit on the large size and I'm straining the limits of the fuel map to get enough cut back on the PW of the injectors during aux fuel activation to get a good power mixture. The internal fuel rail is definitely supplying the majority of the engine's fuel needs with the electronic injectors, so far, down to a PW of 2.9ms (160 lb/hr) right after step down. With the present fuel table setup, the leanest I can get while on the aux fuel rail is .72 lambda. Feels dam strong though, and it's safe. After the split second of roughness until the aux fuel starts feeding, the ignition cleans up completely and she runs like a bear. Highest MPH for the weekend was 109.++ (1/8 mile) at 24 psi boost. I won't be going over 24 psi boost until I get the fuel cutback timing dialed in. I also think I figured out why I wasn't getting more than 21-22 psi boost from this turbo before. It helps to tighten up the tensions on your BOV, intake pop off and wastegate. DOH!!! No nitrous was used for spooling over the weekend. After the fuel map is dialed in, and it is close, I'll start using the nitrous for a hard launch. The nitrous is now setup on a WOT switch and is no longer controlled by a GOP of the ECM. This will allow me to get instant nitrous activation at or before launch time. Should be interesting.

[Chevota]

Congrats! Next time I'm down your way I definately need to stop by check out your setup. It sounds like our combos and goals are the same except with totally different strategies! (Although you've probably got me beat in the effeciency area.) BTW, just how big is the new motor?

Scott Wile

[DonWG]

224 cid.

[Lonnie]

Don,
Nice talking with you last week & I'm glad it is working out for you. R&D is expensive & time consuming to say the least.

Sounds like you can drop the 160's down to a smaller injector to regain some tuning ability.

[DonWG]

I hear you. The problem is that at 16 psi, the point that I turn off the nitrous and turn on the aux fuel, the injectors (160 lb/hr) are really close to max duty cycle. Especially, with the overlapping I'm going to have to use to take care of the delay from activation to actual fuel delivery from the aux fuel rail. I'm going to go ahead and tune everything in with the present setup. Then, I'll start throwing a little more boost at it and see if the new fuel requirement will give me back some range from the electronic injectors.
A good sign is that the mixture is very rich when the aux fuel turns on, but then leans out with rpm. After each shift and resulting rpm drop, the mixture goes back to rich and as rpm rises again, the mixture leans. When I say leans, it's still way too rich for max power. The target lambda is .771. At the leanest point, at max rpm, I'm getting .716.

The present testing boost level is 24, with 28 being the planned max.

[DonWG]

This last Friday was a test for the nitrous system. It is now on a WOT switch and activates immediately. On the first run I launched the way I used to. Stab the throttle on the first amber, release the transbrake on the last amber, and roll into the nitrous activation which was controlled by the ECM. This time, by transbrake release on the last amber she was straining at the reins. She jumped into the air a good foot or more. I increased the nitrous retard after that, since I'm still tuning in transition points in the VE map. I now stab the throttle on the second amber. Nitrous immediately takes the stall of the T/C to just around 3400 rpm. Perfect. Because of the lower CR of my present engine, it takes exactly one second to get to 16 psi boost (past engine, .4 seconds). This is where the nitrous is shut down. This is also with very retarded timing and a very safe mixture. The time to 16 psi will lessen, I'm sure, as the tuning comes in.

I have witnessed a very interesting affect with the nitrous system. It is the accumulating affect of the space volume between the nitrous solenoid and the injection nozzles where the jets are located. Since the nitrous lines and distribution blocks carry nitrous in a mostly liquid state (if good purging is performed) by the time the solenoid is turned off, this liquid still trapped between the solenoid and jets of the nozzles must now decompress. In doing so, it converts to a gas while still in the lines and maintains a high pressure as it does so. This causes nitrous, in a mix of liquid and gaseous state to continue to be injected into the engine long after the FUEL side of the nitrous system has shut down. This causes a very large lean spike. A very dangerous situation. Just what I need. Another tuning problem to deal with.

[Chevota]

Sounds like the distance from the solenoid to the injection points are extremely long. Although a longer line will soften the hit, it will also hold more volume and create the situation you're having. Jetting will have the greatest affect of how long that liquid remains in the line and continues to hold pressure past the shut-off point. Shorten that line or put some bigger jets in! Good luck!

Scott Wile

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by Chevota

Sounds like the distance from the solenoid to the injection points are extremely long. Although a longer line will soften the hit, it will also hold more volume and create the situation you're having. Jetting will have the greatest affect of how long that liquid remains in the line and continues to hold pressure past the shut-off point. Shorten that line or put some bigger jets in! Good luck!

Scott Wile

The length of the nitrous line is giving me perfect activation timing as far as the nitrous and fuel getting to the nozzles at the same time. It's only on the turn off of the system that's a problem. If I shorten the nitrous line, I would assume the nitrous will reach the nozzles before the fuel and lead to a lean spike at the start. Catch 22. Bigger jets? You're kidding right?

[Chevota]

So, just how long is that line between solenoid and jets, and what size is it? Direct port? Distribution blocks? The easiest fix, if nothing else works, would be to wire in another solenoid on the distribution block(or tee'd of the feed line) that is set up to open when the primary feed solenoid closes to simply, and effectively bleed off the residual n2o. Might be possible to tie in to the purge system to minimize complexity.

Scott Wile

[J-B Racing]

Don = Nitrous Einstein.....

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by Chevota

So, just how long is that line between solenoid and jets, and what size is it? Direct port? Distribution blocks? The easiest fix, if nothing else works, would be to wire in another solenoid on the distribution block(or tee'd of the feed line) that is set up to open when the primary feed solenoid closes to simply, and effectively bleed off the residual n2o. Might be possible to tie in to the purge system to minimize complexity.

Scott Wile

That is a very interesting idea. It would have to be timed so that boost pressure doesn't start to back flow into the nozzles. Check valves or a pressure switch monitoring the nitrous line. It could turn into a rather complex arrangement. Like everything else on this engine isn't complex enough.

I think I'll be looking into some sort of time delay switch that I can tie into the fuel solenoid feed wire that will have an adjustment feature, say increments of one tenth of a second. I need a .5 second turn off delay. With that I can scrap the idea of having to put extra fuel into the fuel table right at the turn off point. I have plenty of map points left to create any shape of extra injector pw, but that would take some time to create with testing and what about a situation where I might have to get off the throttle, then get back in it. What kind of activation and timing scenarios could I end up with there.

I've decided to deactivate the aux fuel rail for now and run the motor out as far as I can with the electronic injectors alone for now. That will mean a shift point of around 6500 rpm to keep injector duty cycle reasonable. That way I can work on the nitrous deactivation problem by itself, instead of having the timing of the aux system muddying the situation. After the nitrous problem is solved and the basic a/f numbers are tuned in, then I can work on bringing in the aux fuel which will raise my shift point to 7400 rpm.

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by J-B Racing

Don = Nitrous Einstein.....

Believe me. I am no Einstein. I am more like a persistent grasshopper.

[J-B Racing]

Originally Posted by DonWG

Believe me. I am no Einstein. I am more like a persistent grasshopper.

I am gonna call you instead of NOS when I install Nitrous on the Lemans...

I announce you the Nitrous Tech Guy....

[DonWG]

Hmmm.

The solution to the nitrous problem is a time delay relay. MSD sells a dual circuit unit. It is adjustable down to 1/100 of a second increments.

Back to the aux fuel rail. I'm looking into adding an automatic air bleed valve. This may be a way to shorten the delay time from solenoid activation to actual fuel flow.

[DonWG]

Looks like I'll be developing my own air bleed valves. I'm thinking of using two of them. Two at the end opposite the fuel entry of the fuel rail. Mounted at the high spot on the top side of the fuel rail. They'll be designed to let air escape until a solid column of fuel hits them and closes them at around 35 to 45 psi. Testing will give me a better idea of what closing psi to use. I'll be looking for a minimum amount of fuel getting past the bleed valve. Fun, fun.

[DonWG]

Here is an overview of the nitrous system.

[Chevota]

You know....It's not going to be fast unless you have a distibutor
I bet that MSD relay is going to be expensive!

scott wile

[DonWG]

Just finished installing it tonight. 130 bucks. Not bad.

Distributor? You're kidding again, right?

[Chevota]

Originally Posted by DonWG

Just finished installing it tonight. 130 bucks. Not bad.

Distributor? You're kidding again, right?

Don, I apologize. My sarcasm gets the best of.... everyone but me! Yes, I was kidding. On another note, I realize you're trying to reach an ultimate goal(and we all want to know what that might be! ), but aren't you concerned that at some point things start going beyond practical in a race enviroment? I live by the "KISS" rule and by goodness if I was your position in between rounds, at an event, when something went wrong with your vehicle, I might panic BTW, how's the relay working?

Scott Wile

[DonWG]

I know you were being sarcastic. I was too.

You're absolutely correct about the practicality of my setup as a dependable race setup. It would not be the way I would suggest someone else go. Especially, someone just looking to have a car to race. You know. People with the race car driver mentality. No regard for how the machine works, just wants to tear things up on the track. It would be so much easier to buy off the shelf parts and put something together that would most likely give me the same results and ultimately have been much cheaper. But, my ultimate goal has never been to quickly put a car together, jump into it and just race it. That would bore me to death. The enjoyment I get out of my project is the challenge of putting together something that is unique and efficient and challenging. I love to tinker and try new things out and learn new skills. Whether the skills be craftmanship related or scientific (metallurgy, fluid dynamics, electronics, metal fabrication, mathematics, etc., etc.). Sometimes, I think so much so to a fault. But,... it's how I enjoy using my free time. It would be total boredom to most people I'm sure. It's like blower technology. Top fuel teams are never satisfied with the performance of their blowers, among other aspects of their race car too, I'm sure. Blower technology would never be where it is today if racers just sat on the couch watching football games all weekend, chugging down six packs. There are people out there that are always asking the question, 'What if we tried this? Would it squeeze a little bit more out of it?' There are some people out there that know hundreds of ways not to build a blower and a few right ways to build a great blower. They didn't get that experiece by sitting on their behind. And,... it's what they enjoy doing. Obviously, I'm not trying to build a record breaker. The setup would have taken a much different direction and I would have ended up with a worse maintenance nightmare than I have with this one. Plus, there is always someone out there with the resources to top a record. I choose to simply challenge myself. That is where I derive my satisfaction from this project. It's my shop project.

The delay box is working great. There is one aspect of it that worries me.
There is a reset circuit that I have connected to my throttle microswitch. The same one that activates the NOS system. The WOT switch. I have this reset circuit connected to the normally closed terminal. When this terminal supplies 12V to the delay unit, it resets the delay timer to start (rearms the timer). This terminal on the microswitch only supplies 12V when at any throttle position other than WOT. The only time the timer will count down is when this circuit is at 0V (WOT). If the circuit sees 12V, it stops the countdown and resets the timer to start. That brings up some situational problems.

The intended situation would be to stay at WOT for the complete run, the 16 psi pressure switch shut power to the nitrous gas solenoid, the loss of 12V on that circuit then signals the delay box to start and maintain countdown on the ground circuit of the nitrous fuel solenoid, as long as 12V is not seen on the reset circuit (at the throttle microswitch) as the countdown is occuring.

The problem. What if during or just before the countdown needs to happen, I have to come off WOT? As soon as I pull off WOT, 12V is supplied to the reset on the delay box and countdown is haulted and reset waiting for the next loss of 12V on the power side of the nitrous gas solenoid, as long as there is not 12V on the reset circuit. I don't like the idea of what might happen if I have to pull off WOT at the wrong time. I've been trying to figure out a different activation arrangement for the reset circuit that would be automatic and keep me away from the above situation. Any ideas appreciated.

[Chevota]

Could you use one of the 12v output's of the ecu to control the time delay relay? That way you could isolate the reset circuit from the WOT switch and possibly(depending on your ecu), make it RPM based. If I'm reading you correctly might that work? I'm a "visual" troubleshoot kinda guy so lemme know if I'm way off base

Scott Wile

[DonWG]

Ran the car tonight. The delay box actually worked real well. I started with a .5 second delay and ended up with a .9 second delay. I found out that the map is a little lean when the nitrous turns off, so I need to correct that and then retune the delay. Finally got some nice, smooth runs in. Going WOT on the second amber was pretty crazy. The car lost traction out of the hole and wanted to start heading for a wall. I may have the nitrous power circuit go through a relay controlled by the transbrake switch.
There was one run where I pedalled pretty heavy. That was the first run, leaving on the second amber. Red light start to boot. Immediately lost traction, started pitching sideways and I needed to play with the throttle a bit to get her back straight. The datalog didn't show any massive problem with the reset circuit as it's setup. I'll leave it the way it is for now. The car is still pig rich. Ran low on nitrous so I had to stop testing. Time to start leaning on her a little.

[DonWG]

Barona has a big purse bracket going on this weekend, including test and tune on Friday. I'll be there Friday to see if I can get a decent enough tuneup to compete Saturday and Sunday. No test and tune lanes on the weekend. Only eliminations. We'll see what happens.

[Chevota]

Originally Posted by DonWG

Barona has a big purse bracket going on this weekend, including test and tune on Friday. I'll be there Friday to see if I can get a decent enough tuneup to compete Saturday and Sunday. No test and tune lanes on the weekend. Only eliminations. We'll see what happens.

Good luck!

[DonWG]

Originally Posted by Chevota

Good luck!

Thanks Scott. I'll take all the luck I can get.