3 bar map with digital dash

[QUIP'6']

i recently bought razors kit "" LOVE IT"" anyway i want to hook it up to the already existing map plug for analog dashes and i want to know where the end of the wires goto under the dash. the digital dash has no dash hook up. i talked to julio and he told me but i am lost dont want to bug the guy when all i can do is hook a wire to the tps under the hood but i want a clean hook up under the dash. looked under the glove box and all i see is a rubber grommet in the firewall and wires going to the computor and a 16 wire plug wrapped in foam. PLEASE HELP ANYONE THAT DID THIS WITH A DIGITAL DASH

[pacecarta]

its in the instructs

flop open the glovebox the right side is a clear connector with foam around it that connects the engine harness to the dash harness , thats where youll be locating the wires on the engine side of the harness

you can jump 5v from the tps 5v to the ecm (pin C14 gray) to the map feed at the white connector on engine side of harness ,
youll need to jump ground from the tps ground (pin D12 Black) to the map ground at the white connector on engine side of harness
you can tap the map signal for the pAc from the same connector as you would for analog dash
you can then install the 3bar map under the hood to the factory connector and it will function and with key on should read 1.6v at the center pin (pin B) , pin C will have +5V and pin A should read ground , also double check at the map connection to the pac controller that you indeed have 1.6v key on

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by pacecarta

its in the instructs

flop open the glovebox the right side is a clear connector with foam around it that connects the engine harness to the dash harness , thats where youll be locating the wires on the engine side of the harness

you can jump 5v from the tps 5v to the ecm (pin C14 gray) to the map feed at the white connector on engine side of harness ,
youll need to jump ground from the tps ground (pin D12 Black) to the map ground at the white connector on engine side of harness
you can tap the map signal for the pAc from the same connector as you would for analog dash
you can then install the 3bar map under the hood to the factory connector and it will function and with key on should read 1.6v at the center pin (pin B) , pin C will have +5V and pin A should read ground , also double check at the map connection to the pac controller that you indeed have 1.6v key on

AWESOME THANKS now does gray wire on the connector goto the c14 gray on the ecm and the groung goto the black d12 on the ecm? cant i ground it anywhere on the car and the green wire on the connector goto the pac green

[pacecarta]

Originally Posted by lpaulabbott

AWESOME THANKS now does gray wire on the connector goto the c14 gray on the ecm and the groung goto the black d12 on the ecm? cant i ground it anywhere on the car and the green wire on the connector goto the pac green

thought i made it as clear as it gets but guess i lost you so ill try to clear it up

yes jump the gray wire at connector (see pic) to pin c14(gray wire at ecm)

jump the black wire at connector (see pic) to pin D12 at ecm and no dont just connect to ground , its a low reference ground put it to D12 black wire only.

yes splice in the PAC map input wire to the green wire at the white connector (see pic)

by jumping/splicing do an ectrically sound connection . slice the wires open (shave back about 1/2 inch of the insulation) , spread the wires apart , insert an end the stripped jump wire and twist in , solder the connection then tape over with electrical tape
.
dont use crimp on scotchlok splicers ! the map function is too important to rely on those types connectors

HTH

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by pacecarta

thought i made it as clear as it gets but guess i lost you so ill try to clear it up

yes jump the gray wire at connector (see pic) to pin c14(gray wire at ecm)

jump the black wire at connector (see pic) to pin D15 at ecm and no dont just connect to ground , its a low reference ground put it to D12 black wire only.

yes splice in the PAC map input wire to the green wire at the white connector (see pic)

by jumping/splicing do an ectrically sound connection . slice the wires open (shave back about 1/2 inch of the insulation) , spread the wires apart , insert an end the stripped jump wire and twist in , solder the connection then tape over with electrical tape
.
dont use crimp on scotchlok splicers ! the map function is too important to rely on those types connectors

HTH

perfect you couldnt of put it better thanks for all your help!!!

[QUIP'6']

thanks pacecarta got it all buttoned up and soldered everything went well and ohmed out great cant wait to get my motor in and crank her up SLOWLY!!!!!!!!!

[Razor]

Excellent.

Take your time on the tuning.. make it the most enjoyable part of modding the car.

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by Razor

Excellent.

Take your time on the tuning.. make it the most enjoyable part of modding the car.

you got that right dont want to pull the motor anytime soon 3rd time around already in 2 summers

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Julio and Paul,

Thanks for the kit Julio and the new 3 Bar Map sensor, I just wanted to share that I did the wiring per Paul's instructions on the 3 bar map. And everything is great! I just did exactly as stated and soldered the whole deal....I need to tune a little but I have everything as it was shipped, turned the blue knob back a little, (alky comming on and getting some lag) and turned the boost up to 25psi (eventually) and have 0.00 kr from a dead stop/power brake.
Thank you,

Chuck

[1turbo6]

not getting the 1.6v on pin B. I tried to run a wire (green)over from the controller to the green on the clear connector in pic but no 1.6v. I have the 5v and ground, what could cause this?
did I need this connection? Or does the wire that runs from the pac controller to terminal B supply the 1.6v

[pacecarta]

the PAC green wire is an input

at the with key on , under the hood with map sensor connected you can slide a paperclip in to the backside of the map connector along side the wire and verify the 5v , grnd and that the map output at pin B is 1.6v

[1turbo6]

what if if is not 1.6v ?? I only see .015V. I took the car out for a spin and it seems to be spraying. the spray light is coming on now,where it was not since I swapped the dash. o2's are nice and high. I tried to wire it 2 ways and could not get the 1.6v. I have the green wire tapped in at the PIN(B) on MAP. is this correct? I had it on the green on the clear connector like in the pic, but still did not see the 1.6? am I missing something?

[1turbo6]

Alright I took a paperclip and slid it in to terminal B and it was 1.56v so I guess I am all set. I didnt realize you had to probe the pins with it plugged in.
thanks for the paperclip trick.

[pgoffner]

On an 86 T with digital dash does there need to be a vacuum line hooked up to the 3 bar MAP sensor once installed? Also if I choose to install the MAP sensor inside the car do I still have to tap TPS from under the hood or is there a source inside the dash somewhere? Also this Hobbs Switch that is under the hood, is this left alone completely? I've been reading and searching...my head is beginning to hurt

I think if I had a better understanding of what the 3 bar MAP sensor is doing and why it is needed I wouldnt be so confused. I understand its feeding the PAC some info needed to control Alky spray but what is it? Is it boost? TPS voltage?

Anyone have any pictures diagram's I'm a visual learner...lol

[Razor]

MAP=Manifold Air Pressure
Bar=14.7 PSI
3 BAR reads one bar vacuum, 2 bars boost. 2 bar boost =29.4 PSI

So a 3 bar MAP is kind of like a 15VAC-30PSI electronic boost guage.

So yes you need to hook a hose from the intake to the nipple on it, if not it cannot read boost.

Yes you need to supply it power and ground.

On a digital dash car, get rid of that hobbs switch on the fender.. unplug it. Then plug in the 3 prong connector there. Unhook the hose from the hobbs switch and hook it to the 3 bar nipple. That way you have your vacuum/boost source for it.

Now follow the instructions on the beginning of this thread and wire the 5volts to the gray wire and ground the black wire. And connect the green wire going to the PAC to the green wire on the 3 bar plug.

Hope this helps.

[pgoffner]

Originally Posted by Razor

MAP=Manifold Air Pressure
Bar=14.7 PSI
3 BAR reads one bar vacuum, 2 bars boost. 2 bar boost =29.4 PSI

So a 3 bar MAP is kind of like a 15VAC-30PSI electronic boost guage.

So yes you need to hook a hose from the intake to the nipple on it, if not it cannot read boost.

Yes you need to supply it power and ground.



On a digital dash car, get rid of that hobbs switch on the fender.. unplug it. Then plug in the 3 prong connector there. Unhook the hose from the hobbs switch and hook it to the 3 bar nipple. That way you have your vacuum/boost source for it.

Now follow the instructions on the beginning of this thread and wire the 5volts to the gray wire and ground the black wire. And connect the green wire going to the PAC to the green wire on the 3 bar plug.

Hope this helps.

Question....does this ground have to be tapped from the TPS or can it be just a simple ground? I may need to do that part over in the morning

[Razor]

Originally Posted by pgoffner

Question....does this ground have to be tapped from the TPS or can it be just a simple ground? I may need to do that part over in the morning

Ground is ground.

If your doing it under the hood, ground it to the bolt on the fender by the battery. If your under the dash, use the ECM ground or bolt that holds the dash up.

[57 chevy]

Razor is on vacation this week, so I need some help. Just got my alky kit for 87 gn digital dash. I have turbo-link installed & working many years now. it has a weather tight harness connector that runs from the tps plug to the mototron 3 bar map. voltage at the harness end at the 3 bar unplugged is as follows. red has the 5+ volts. the black is grounded, but the green has 3+ volts. I see where it says go to the green behind glove box. went there but voltage is 3+ volts. need to get 1.6 somewhere> i am assuming the glovebox & orange below the boost guage is the same wire.also my hobbs switch is still plugged in & my 3 bar vacuum is connected to the original vac hookup next to the hobbs switch. after i get the 1.6 volts ( where ), do I need to do anything with the weathertite connector that runs from the tps to the 3 bar? also the orange/brown twisted wire from the turn on led is much smaller than the orange & brown comming from the pac. much smaller. are they to be connected?

[QUIP'6']

Originally Posted by 57 chevy

Razor is on vacation this week, so I need some help. Just got my alky kit for 87 gn digital dash. I have turbo-link installed & working many years now. it has a weather tight harness connector that runs from the tps plug to the mototron 3 bar map. voltage at the harness end at the 3 bar unplugged is as follows. red has the 5+ volts. the black is grounded, but the green has 3+ volts. I see where it says go to the green behind glove box. went there but voltage is 3+ volts. need to get 1.6 somewhere> i am assuming the glovebox & orange below the boost guage is the same wire.also my hobbs switch is still plugged in & my 3 bar vacuum is connected to the original vac hookup next to the hobbs switch. after i get the 1.6 volts ( where ), do I need to do anything with the weathertite connector that runs from the tps to the 3 bar? also the orange/brown twisted wire from the turn on led is much smaller than the orange & brown comming from the pac. much smaller. are they to be connected?

just plug in your factory analog plug for the 3 bar map and unplu the hobs switch for the digital dash and go under the dash in the glove box and grab the foam covered plug and look at the upper right of the plug and there you will see from the outside map plug wires coming in they are conected there and where the plugs connect the other side there will be no wires.that is where the wires are to goto if you have a analog dash so connect the green wire to the pac green wire and connect the ground to the ground under the dash and the grey will go to c-14 pin on the computor harness. and ther you have it hope that helps. as for the brown and orange wires yes that is right

[QUIP'6']

mr julio don i just installed another kit on a friends car and I LOVE THE NEW UPDATED ALKY KIT WITH WEATHERPACK CONNECTORS IT IS VERY STEALTH

[57 chevy]

thanks lpaulabbott,
but still little confused. does my factory digital dash have an analog plug, and where is it? also where do i plug it into what ? my 3 bar is a mototron that already is pluged in from harness from tps.

[pacecarta]

the digital dash and analog dash cars differ in the dash side harness

the engine harness for both dash types are the same ,the harness runs up too the ecm and the connector behind the glove box right hand side

the digital uses the connector for the hobbs switch to drive the boost lights in the digital gauge cluster , it doesnt use the map sensor so the wires arent present in the dash harness and the map connector under hood the wont have any power or ground

the analog uses the map connector to a 2bar map sensor to drive the analog dash cluster boost gausge , with that dash the hobbs connector is inactive

the MAP gets its power from the boost/tach module thats in the analog gauge cluster , if you dont have that either because you have a digital dash or because youve changed to a gnx type dash or cyberdyne then youll need to make the map connector under the hood active

you say already have a harness for the map from the turbolink plug and play which you're using now on your powerlogger so doing any additional wiring to make the sensor work isnt required
the signal from center pin (B) can be used for the powerlogger and the alky map input (green wire at PAC) but your sensor output needs to be showing 1.6V at the center pin @ atmosphere (no vaccum - key on engine off) , with 3.0v would cause the alky to be on at all times
not sure if this the case but 3v at 0psi sounds like the sensor might be wired backwards on the ground and power (OE TTA sensors were backward of the replacements (A and c terminals) and required an adapter harness that flipped those wires.
if your sensor is wired correctly and doesnt show 1.6V then youll need to get one that will like the GM replacement 3bar sensor for the TTA

[57 chevy]

Thanks pacecarta, but more questions.
where does the 1.6 volts come from at the 3 bar? is it from tps wire that runs to the 3 bar or is it from the 3 bar to the tps? confused as to which direction the voltage flows.

if i get the correct 3 bar that should have the 1.6 volts, would i have to power the turbo-link from a different source or do away with the turbo-link. do you know of anyone else that has the alky with digital dash & turbo-link ?

i have been considering getting the powerlogger but have been very happy with the turbo-link.

[pacecarta]

the ecm sends 5V to the tps , the tps outputs a signal from 0 to 4.9V at pin B (TPS signal) which is fed directly back to the ecm so it knows the TPS position , with idle set at .42- .44V and WOT set over 4.5V or so the ecm knows the relative position of the throttle blade determined by the returning signal voltage ,

the turbolink harness taps into the TPS wiring at the 5v input at the TPS and ground and jumps it to the map sensor

a map sensor works similar to the tps but it uses vacuum or pressure to affect the signal voltage much like the tps uses the arm

with 5V applied to pin A of map sensor and ground at pin C , the returned voltage on pin B is the MAP signal voltage ( based on vac/boost level at the sensor port )

a 3 BAR sensor is rated to read 3 BARs of pressure ,1 BAR vacuum and 2 BARs pressure
BAR is metric measurement and 1 BAR = 1 atmosphere or 14.7psi

with a 3bar map being fed 5V (the 5V is tapped from power to the tps sender) and ground at pin C the voltage at pin B should be
0 V is 14.7psi vac, 1.6V=0 psi and 4.9V= ~30psi

so at zero vac(or zero psi ) the MAP sensor should return a value at pin B of 1.6V besure you have this for alky operation , if not find a sensor that will

then just tap into the wire to the center pin of the MAP sensor (pin B) as close to the MAP connector as you can and run it to the pac controller (green wire), dont run (OR TAP )it to the turbolink adapter output as thats altered to be fed into the IAT(MAT) harness

and yes the orange and brown two color led wires connect to the orange and brown wires at the PAC

[57 chevy]

thanks pacecarta.
So do I need a 3 bar for my turbolink & a seperate 3 bar for the alky? concerned if i change the center pin from 3 volt to 1.6 that it will have an effect on the turbolink. also turbolink asside,if i did have the proper 3 bar, what type of electrical connection does it have? would it be something that would require running loose wires from different locations, or is there a plug in harness for the 3 bar. the more i read the more i think i am going to have to do away with the turbo link.

[57 chevy]

Pacecarta,
I can't thank you enough, I appreciate the time you have take to help me.
I have been measuring voltage at the harness that plugs into the 3 bar, without it being connected to the 3 bar. I connected it & walla 1.57 volts. will that be ok to run to the pac?

one last question. should I run 2 wires inside the car just for the purpose of adding powerlogger at a later date, or could I tap into the single green wire inside the car that will run to the pac?

I can't thank you enough. Sorry to be such a pain. Razor is very lucky to have someone like you to fill in during his absence. U R DA MAN.

[pacecarta]

its 1.6 at sea level , altitude affects the voltage , 1.57 is fine now connect it to the PAC green wire (make a solid connection) and get to tuning

and one wire is fine, you can tap into it as you need

[Razor]

Thanks a million Paul.

One thing is the T-link harness ties into the MAT circuit so it reads boost through the MAT(manifold air temp) input on the ecm. Becuase of this it changes the voltage on the 3 bar output. Yes it does get its power from the TPS and its ground. But the green(signal) wire gets altered becuase of its connection to the resistor used for MAT.

If you get a power logger, T into the green wire coming from the 3 bar and use that for its signal.

You guys are great..

Julio

[pacecarta]

Post deleted per Paul's request

[57 chevy]

sO ITS OK TO TAP INTO THE GREEN WIRE AT THE 3 BAR WHERE TLINK CONNECTS?

[Razor]

Originally Posted by 57 chevy

sO ITS OK TO TAP INTO THE GREEN WIRE AT THE 3 BAR WHERE TLINK CONNECTS?

As long as you have 1.6 volts output from the 3 bar MAP, you can do anything you want. If you dont have 1.6 volts.. then your back to square one on this.

T-link adapter gets its power from the TPS and interfaces with the MAT circuit. This MAT circuit interfacing is whats messing with the voltage. This is not an issue with the power logger as it doesnt mess/change the voltage from the MAP sensor.

This is what I would do, connect your t-link adapter and 3 bar MAP sensor. Turn the ignition "ON".. measure voltage on the center terminal of the 3 bar with the 3 prong weather pack plug "PLUGGED INTO IT". If it measures approx 1.6 volts.. tie into it by splicing the wire and your done.

IF the voltage reads way higher like 3 volts, then the interface is messing with the voltage and cannot be used. At this point your options are disconnect the wiring to the MAT circuit at the air filter and reconnect the MAT sensor to the OEM wiring and re-check your voltage.. this will mean you cannot use the boost logging feature. Or get a separate 3 bar for the PAC controller and leave your 3 bar for the T-link. Or get rid of the t-link and get a power logger if you must record your boost level.

The t-link is very slow at 1.5 frames per second. meaning a 10 second run you have very few frames of data 15. Versus a power logger has 18+ frames per second giving you over 180 frames of data in a 10 second run. So all this complication.. its probably better to upgrade your electronics to the power logger if you must record your boost level.

I dont think you'll end up having and eating your cake too on this deal. Meaning using the 3 bar map for both purposes "alky kit and t-link boost sensing". Only becuase of the way it attaches to the MAT circuit on the factory ECM. Hope i'm wrong.

[Razor]

I found a T-link boosty sensing harness in my "stuff"

What happens is it makes things confusing since the color "green" on the T-link is actually +5 volts on the MAP plug.

A=ground
B=signal
C=power(+5)

On the T-link harness green is C. On the Buick factory harness green is B. This adds confusion.

Now here is the kicker.. The A terminal(which is a black colored wire) on the T-link harness goes to the MAT sensor "-", and the B terminal(tan colored wire) goes to the MAT signal. So the ground for the MAP comes from the ecm through the MAT. And the signal is altered by the pullup resistor built into the ecm on the TAN MAT wire.

So... if you want to disable the T-link harness and use it to supply 5 volts to the 3 bar MAP, all you need to do is unplug the white female MAT plug, and ground the black wire on the MAP. Now you can attach the green wire going to the alky controller to the center "B=signal" which is a tan wire.. and whalla.. you'll have your 1.6 volts.

You cannot use the MAT input and have a normal scaling 3 bar MAP becuase of the ecm connection.

Now I thought of just cutting the tan colored wire and letting the ecm ground the black, but doing this poses an open circuit on the MAT.. which will give a "Check Engine" code for MAT. This is why unplug it, hook up the MAT sensor as OEM, and apply ground to the black colored wire going to the MAT plug.

Hope this helps the archives somehow.

[57 chevy]

Razor, my t-link harness at the 3 bar is as following. a-blk, b green ( not c ), c-red. the harness that is next to the hobbs not used is as follows a-blk, b-green, c-grey.currently, my mat is unplugged, the mat harness ( grey & blk )is plugged into the t-link harness that goes to the tps, then from the tps it goes to the 3 bar. with this set up I have 1.57 volts at the green b terminal at the 3 bar. the blk that normally plugs into the mat, does show ground, but not from anything I have done

It looks like my t link boost harness at the 3 bar has different colored wire
( green ) where the one you have has a tan. does the tan from the map plug go thru the the t-link harness possibly changing to green inside the harness then connect to the green wire that runs to the b terminal at the 3 bar? my hobbs is still pluged in & the loose ( analog plug ?) at the fender next to the hobbs is idle. do I need to do away with the t link harness ( datalogger on order ) reconnect the map, unplug the hobbs & use the ( analog harness concerned about the 5 volts & ground ) next to the hobbs to plug into the 3 bar. mind has turned to mush. the more I read the confuseder I get. done for the day. thanks

[Razor]

Originally Posted by 57 chevy

Razor, my t-link harness at the 3 bar is as following. a-blk, b green ( not c ), c-red. the harness that is next to the hobbs not used is as follows a-blk, b-green, c-grey.currently, my mat is unplugged, the mat harness ( grey & blk )is plugged into the t-link harness that goes to the tps, then from the tps it goes to the 3 bar. with this set up I have 1.57 volts at the green b terminal at the 3 bar. the blk that normally plugs into the mat, does show ground, but not from anything I have done

It looks like my t link boost harness at the 3 bar has different colored wire
( green ) where the one you have has a tan. does the tan from the map plug go thru the the t-link harness possibly changing to green inside the harness then connect to the green wire that runs to the b terminal at the 3 bar? my hobbs is still pluged in & the loose ( analog plug ?) at the fender next to the hobbs is idle. do I need to do away with the t link harness ( datalogger on order ) reconnect the map, unplug the hobbs & use the ( analog harness concerned about the 5 volts & ground ) next to the hobbs to plug into the 3 bar. mind has turned to mush. the more I read the confuseder I get. done for the day. thanks

To keep confusion down, its like this.

IF you get 1.5-1.6 volts on the center pin of the 3 bar MAP.. you have the correct wiring and correct +B and ground. And all you do is splice into the center wire and run that to the PAC controller.

Nothing else matters

Makes it easy if we simplify things

[pacecarta]

heres diagrams to help clear any confusion as to what connectors you need to find to make the jump and where they are in the car