hey julio

[unfair]

there is a good post going on over at supraforums, and i was giving good feedback on my alkycontrol kit.. this guy had some insite and i just want other opinions since i think he makes some valid points and i'm not realy sure on how my system works.. here is the post from (anarkey)


So far ( to my knowledge), my kit is still the only one designed to be run in conjunction with a AEM EMS or comparable standalone ECU. The EMS activates it (not a external pressure switch) with a software programmable output. The pump reports back to the EMS that it has achieved injection pressure. You then use this feedback signal from the pump as the basis to do fuel/timing/boost changes.

Everyone else turns on the system and then you tune with the hope that it is working and full of meth/water. Some will cut boost, which I'll tell you, is NOT enough when you have tuned your AFR to work on methanol. Sure you can cut the boost down, but then you are still at 13.5-14 AFR. You need to be able to revert boost, fuel, and timing (if done), to make it safe.

I have noticed many systems that use the Shurflo pump still have the power wire going through the switch on top of the pump. BAD practice. Again, just test that setup off the car and watch the spray. That switch is turning the pump on/off about 2 times a second. You don't get steady spray. You get PULSE, dribble, PULSE, dribble, PULSE, dribble. You need to run the pump full blast when you do run it.

The reason I push the EMS for methanol use is that you leave so much performance untapped if you can't optimize the timing, fuel, and boost (ALL THREE) for it. While injecting you will often lose power on the same timing, but gain it back and more with advanced timing.

I never tried to compete with normal systems 4 years ago when I started selling mine. Now there are 4 more major companies pushing their standard systems. I'll tell you, they are all essentially the same thing. Same pumps, nozzles, hoses, etc. The occasional variable controller, which I welcome anyone to test OFF the car and observe the spray. Lets say, most of them suck. I abondoned variable control a long time ago because I concluded the spray was simply too poor trying to lower output by pulsing or lowering voltage to the pump (which is how they all work).

I know the idea of progressive sounds cool, but after years of testing and 100+ cars, I have found that a robust ON/OFF cycle with correct flow rate, and tuning for such, works best.

100% methanol also, bad idea. You can create a ignitable mixture in the intake manifold. I personally know someone who has exploded a intake on a 3000GT doing that. Please, please, run 50/50, and use the right ratio. Don't try and dump 40% of your fuel as methanol through a injection system.

If you can't have any form of tuning to go with a injection system, then run pure water and use a very low flow rate.

[Royal-T-Ltd]

just a question dont mean to start up anything.... but how fast has he gone with his setup?

[unfair]

i really don't know,, and i'm not trying to stir the pot, just thought it be a good discussion

[Razor]

So what specifically is it you'd like to know?

Guess..

1) If you cant tune your car.. dont put an alcohol injection system on it. Duhh. Else you can damage your motor, explode intakes, back fire, etc. The Buicks have this easy.. cuase they're "figured out".. no exploding intakes, connecting rods snapping, etc etc etc.

2) 100% methanol bad idea comment.. go back to respone 1) above

3) I dont run the power switch through the top of the pump. That one was easy.

4) If you have an AEM.. you can tie the pump into the AEM for protection through the nitrous mapping feature. On the Turbo Buicks.. this doesnt apply.. This is how a lot of EVO8 customers hook their kits up.

5) I'd like to see performance numbers going down a track.. then the ears will listen.. until then.. hogwash

6) Import forums are the worse when it comes to "Real" data.. You want examples.. the Dodge Neon SRT4.. look how many doing injection kits on computers that cannot be tuned.. and nobody making any real world numbers... wonder why??? This is why I dont make kits for Neons.. actually made one 4 weeks ago when AEM released the standalone.. they're still working the bugs out on that one.

7) Look into the EVO forums for imports running on straight alcohol. And search out the ones making HP what they're doing.. you'll be pressed to see 50/50 mix.

8) Want to see numbers.. the GM forums like Corvette forum, LS1GTO, LS1TECH, etc.. look at the big dogs what they run.. 100% methanol. Out of the top 4 GTO's listed in the 1/4 mile performance.. 3 have my system... running you guessed it.. straight methanol.

Information is out there.. some live in the past.. some get on the ball and move on. This straight methanol vs 50/50 arguement has been around for ever. Bad system design, bad information, bad tuning, bad etc.. yields bad performance. Look how many stock block Buicks are running 10's now on pump gas with 20 year old computers.. times keep changing.. so does the technology.

[unfair]

thanks for the info; julio. i never doubted you. just want you to see the info that's being posted

[Razor]

Originally Posted by unfair

thanks for the info; julio. i never doubted you. just want you to see the info that's being posted

No problem.. tons of info posted throughout the .net.. careful how you sift through it

[Wes 88 SS]

people on the internet love to believe hype. I know this guy who actually has twin 1500 dollar turbos, custom everything, fancy blow off valves, etc. His car slowed down when he tuned it with standalone because he didnt have the actual ability or experience to tune it. He put an alky kit on it & the performance went down even more. Then he blew up the intake. Blaming that on an alky injection kit is rediculous. His car was destined to blow up something because of the lack of tuning ability. Not the injection kit. I consider it like this. I am not a heart surgeon. If I go into the emergency room with a sharp knife & a bottle of peroxide doesnt make me a surgeon. Sometimes people expect a easy button when it comes to modding cars. Education is key.

[spins4]

That guy clearly isn't aware of the R&D and effort that Julio & Wes put into their kits.

I've been using alky/meth injection since 2001. Started out as 100% my own with an unmodified Shurflow pump. But more recently I went to Julio for a pump because of all the R&D he puts into it, changing seals, testing, etc. I will gladly concentrate on what I'm good at, and then pay others for what they are good at! At the end of the day I don't want any problems with my pump and do not mind paying the premium for one with a track record like Alkycontrol claims.

Theres a lot of (MIS)information on SF.com regarding alky injection. Most people are afraid of it. Mainly because they just don't spray enough for their HP. They take a kit designed for a 300hp car and put it on a Supra that makes 600-800whp. And when it blows they blame the alky itself, rather then trying to understand the concept of Octane!

Julio's kit scales well, and I'm sure if you told him the HP you are making he will size the nozzles correctly.

In regards to Wes' post, blaming the alky inj for backfire is like blaming a gun for killing someone. No! Its how you use it that ultimately decides what happens.

[bishir]

"that puts a flamable mixture in the intake... a very bad idea"

What the hell does he think is in the intake of a carbed car?

[unfair]

so more great if from SF.. i hope i don't get into trouble for stirring the pot.

Well then good for Alkycontrol. No, they are not light years ahead. Same parts/ideas tons of other people run. I was selling that same stuff years ago. It wasn't my original idea either. I borrowed ideas/parts from others too.

I can tell from the photos they still run the power through the pressure switch. There is no explanation for this oversight other than they have never sprayed the kit into the air and simply watched the resulting spray. Go ahead and try it, I invite you all. PULSE, PULSE, PULSE, not a steady spray. You will have some induction pulses get really wet and others with 1/2 the amount of liquid.

And why the problem with water? Is that just your knee jerk reaction? Water is a wonderful addition to internal combustion process, it has it's own benefits. Spend a couple days looking over 60 years of research papers on the subject. It slows and extends combustion. Namely, less peak pressure, but the same mean pressure, because it has higher pressure after the peak than no water. So you basically reduce your mechanical strain. If something is gonna snap, it will be at peak pressure. With water you get get the same power with 20-30% lower peak pressures.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by unfair

And why the problem with water? Is that just your knee jerk reaction?

try running water in your car and then change it over to straight Meth ... You do have a car right ?? it will be faster .. we ran 9.8's with a mix and 9.6's @ 142+ with it staight .. tried it in a few cars and allways went to what Julio said in the beginning to me the wheel is round get over it

[unfair]

hey grumpy, i'm in total agreement with you.. i'm simplity quoting other people... that's all

[pacecarta]

Originally Posted by unfair

so more great if from SF.. i hope i don't get into trouble for stirring the pot.


I can tell from the photos they still run the power through the pressure switch. There is no explanation for this oversight other than they have never sprayed the kit into the air and simply watched the resulting spray. Go ahead and try it, I invite you all. PULSE, PULSE, PULSE, not a steady spray. You will have some induction pulses get really wet and others with 1/2 the amount of liquid.

it would appear that way from pics but those of us with razors newer kits know otherwise

[Razor]

Shhhh.. dont tell them how to get faster.. geesh your helping the competition..

That is why no new pictures on the website.. I dont need to educate those that ASSUMME

Fastest C5.. straight alky
3 of the 4 fastest GTO's.. straight alky
All the stock block Buicks in the 10's on pump gas.. straight alky.

Wheel is still round

Unfair.. keep stirring.. your ideas are falling on def ears over there

Plus Supra's only run on race gas.. I mean the Porsche guys buy 5 drums at a time and only use race gas.. so running on pump gas is like drinking soda vs wine. Only use Evian water in your radiator since its the best no

[BDC]

Originally Posted by bishir

"that puts a flamable mixture in the intake... a very bad idea"

What the hell does he think is in the intake of a carbed car?

I was just thinking that myself....